Storyville Jonestown The Worlds Biggest Mass Suicide WS PDTV XviD-REMAX
Something that has always fascinated me is religious cults. I’ve never really understood what it is that brings people to such extreme actions in the name of their beliefs. REMAX is a great group that has released loads of interesting documentaries. The focus of this latest release of theirs is a pastor known as Jim Jones and the following he gathered during the 70’s, which eventually led to the worlds biggest mass suicide. It’s quite interesting to watch because it lets you understand why people join and stay in such cults.
International documentary series. In 1978, San Francisco’s congressman Leo Ryan went to the Guyanan rainforest, investigating the Jonestown cult led by Jim Jones. Rumour had it that US citizens were being imprisoned in death camp conditions, subjected to violence and sexual abuse. A hardened human rights activist, Ryan wanted to find out the truth: but within 48 hours of his arrival, he, Jones and more than 900 Jonestown settlers were dead in what appears to be history’s biggest mass suicide.
Storyville.Jonestown.The.Worlds.Biggest.Mass.Suicide.WS.PDTV.XviD-REMAX
640×352 – 25.00 – vbr mp3 91 kb/s – 699MB
Search Torrent – NFO – Samples: #1, #2, #3
Comments(95)
yeah, ive always wondered what goes through peoples minds with stuff like this
Righteous post ReeGeed! :p
Chyeah, that’s crazy i’ve heard that before..
some crazy fcked up shieeeetttt
I flunked spam protection 8 times – any RS links for this one? XD
project chanology
Thanks for this one. I hope it has some in depth investigations instead of the usual whitewash treatments. I wonder if it will address the CIA involvement. In case it doesn’t:
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/Jonestown_com/CIA.htm
http://www.whale.to/b/jonestown.html
http://www.skepticfiles.org/cults/jones.htm
i came to this meeting cuz i heard there would be punch and pie?
It’s wrong to call it mass suicide – it’s mass murder by someone who uses psychology (brainwashing) as a weapon.
watched this show on bbc last nite pretty interesting goes on for an 1hr 50mins
Die for religious beliefs? Fook that!!
@8, indeed. It was more of an forced suicide and as for the children it was pure murder.
They were dead after 2 days, why?
What drives people to such lengths is beyond me.
@8/11
I suppose. You ultimately have to question the worth of such easily-influenced individuals. For the children, yes, it was most likely a complete loss, but without some way of converting the grown minds, you run the risk of releasing an inferior mindset into society. But then, one could say society requires such quirks.
Religion has always seemed something more for the weaker individual. I can completely understand and respect someon’e beliefs about the creation of existence, but when it comes to dependence on said belief for purpose you end up with useless conflicts or widespread assimilation tactics.
Of course, all of this would be based on my own bias–I can simply find more comfort in the actions of my species and consequences of those actions, as they are much more apparent than any supposed form of divine intervention.
For anyone out there who wishes to enlighten themselves – Check out Sam Harris Debates on Youtube – Well worth regardless of your belief basis.
@14
Then I guess you are someone who believes when we die, that’s it? No afterlife? Or what?
And as for your ignorant comment about religion(s) being for the “weaker individual,” well that’s just ignorance beyond stupidity. Maybe you want to reword that, or clarify? Maybe even backtrack and convince us all you meant something else…
Your spewing of verbally pharisaical crap, your blather desiring to been seen as some sort of intellectual reminds me of just how numb people can be on the internet. Stop trying so hard, seriously.
JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY FOR YOU TO GET TO HAVEN, DON’T GET FULLED BY ALL OF THESE SATAN’S TRICKS.
WANDERING WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT SUICIDE?
IT SAYS THAT WHOEVER KILLS HIMSELF WILL GO STRAIGHT TO HELL AND THERE IS NO TURNING BACK, DON’T LET YOURSELF TRICKED BY SATAN !!!
Satan needs his own talk show.
#17 needs to get a life………
@16
Try to cry less if you are so dependent on operating within a patchwork survival instinct. We’re all just confused animals, running about until we finally leave the world its standard inheritance of carbon, water, trace metals and non-metals, and a seemingly insufficient amount of iodine. Goiter. Goiter goiter.
@ 16: hahaha, you are weak individual.
and ugly too
.
@ 17: hahaha, you are stupid & weak individual.
and you yell too much.
Sad thing is, that this is still happening… I think its a problem of loosing individuality, which is in reality, the only thing we really own. If you loose it, you became shallow. If you are shallow, its easy to get f*cked up. peAce
@ 21,22: hahaha, you are stupid & weak individual.
and you yell too much.
Jonestown The Life and Death of Peoples Temple DVB Xvid AC3 www mvgroup org avi
http://www.mininova.org/tor/850938
Release Notes
* May contain disturbing images to some viewers
* Contains Archival Footage
* IMDB Rating 8.0/10
(Another doc on the same topic, dl as we speak)
i heard there is a new death sect.
their slogan is supposedly “GO ARMY” or “ARMY STRONG”.
@SmokingMan
Just like some of the other whacky conspiracy theories of our time like the CIA killing Kennedy, the FBI bringing down the WTC, and the Air Force harboring aliens at Area 51, you too are trying to spread artificial fear through a whacky conspiracy theory.
hehehe I love religius freaks!!
ThanX
Anyone have RS links?
WWE.Royal.Rumble.2008.PPV.HDTV.XviD-aAF
yastorage/adrive anyone?
whoops wrong thread
Seriously WTF?
Religion has no proof and if jesus loves me i want a devorce the mans a freak.Show me proof of heaven and i’ll come with you but you kill yourself first so i can get back to my porn and chips.Americans are a strange race infact religious nutters are a strange race they believe in bedtime storys mary had a little lamb was that not zoophilia christ knows but yes are all nutters all of it christian,catholic,islamic whatever your all a bunch of scared hipocratic nut cases who talk garbage about something you cannot proove
No torrent showing up yet. Somebody got some other links?
don’t ever let anyone mess around with your belief system.
Quote: @16
Try to cry less if you are so dependent on operating within a patchwork survival instinct. We’re all just confused animals, running about until we finally leave the world its standard inheritance of carbon, water, trace metals and non-metals, and a seemingly insufficient amount of iodine. Goiter. Goiter goiter.
Haha, i love you anonymous. Made me laugh.
This cult has nothing to do with the mainstream religion. To the question about how they die so quickly. He had stockpile of cyanide which, after they shot the congressman, proceeded to make it into a drink and made everyone drink or force them to drink it because the enemy was coming. Really sad. His cult was very different from the Moonies. His attracted the downtrodden people who saw him as the savior. The Moonies attract the very educated and rich kind.
People please remember that this is your only life, there is not going to be anything else so try and make the best out of it!.
excellent, and now they’re all burning in hell. it sucks, but that’s what happens when you don’t choose the straight and narrow path, but try to make your own way to heaven. there’s only one way.
@Alfred
are you seriously saying there’s never been such thing as a conspiracy?
i gotta see this can someone please give me the torrent?
If you think this is bad, check out the cult “scientology”.
Sure, they never had a big event like these guys, but they have caused the death of more people over time, not to speak of the countless private economies it has ruined and families split up.
The weird thing is that you are not allowed to read their texts before you join and pay, but then again considering how incoherent and nonsensical the texts are you can understand why they would hide them.
yeah, this sounds great. Life and Death of the People’s Temple was very interesting. Hopefully this one has some more/different info. This is a tragic story, close to 1/3 of the dead were children, hard to say a toddler committed suicide, alot of murder happened that day and very little investigation. Sample pic #1 is Jim Jones Jr., poor guy lost most of his family that day, it’s nice to see he can talk about it now, it must be really hard for him.
Honestly I don’t get how people can join things like Scientology when there is something like the Jonestown Massacre to remind you what happens when you stopping using your common sense.
Well, them and the Christian Right.
RS.com links? I’d love to see this.
Scientology is very similar to Christianity, only packed in a modern day attractive package. Whlie Christianity is very similar to Judaism (which has many things in common with islam) and so on… Ultimately all of these are a lot o cr4p trying to
1. give twisted baseless explanation about things not yet discovered by science (but eventually will be – remember, how they previously use to say that heaven is up there above the sky? Or the BS divine genesis theory!)
2. create some basic social rules and conventions (which in some ironical way actually helped the old age socities and civilisations) to have some social order. Nowadays we have constitutions and law books for this. So even if we thow away or bunr down all the bible, Korran etc. There will not be much harm.
3. offer lots of fantastic stories, fables etc (in many cases infused with lots of sex/violence/magic) to keep ppl occupied in order to avert gathering of ppl of political nature or against any religios institutional body (vatican/Mosque/Temple etc.). Nowadays our lifestyle in really hectic and we have mobile our and internet to keep us occupied. So like this eventually one day will come when there will be no need felt by anyone to follow any formal religion. To protest we have the blogs, eMails and of course comment writing option etc.
Believe me, there will not be any harm to this world if someone kills the pope or any other big daddy of any formal religion apart from the problems created by his fanatic followers afterwords. Rather it would be a good deed… if u know what I mean (consider how much financial resource is spent every year to perform mumbo jumbo religios things and how much money these big daddys recieve as tax free donations).
im sure 17 was being very witty and ironic, but everyone else seemed to take him seriously… oh well – i thought it was funny.
@47 – “even if we thow away or bunr down all the bible, Korran etc. There will not be much harm.” hmm… except maybe for all the inevitable ‘holy’ wars and general distress caused to people for whom religion is an important coping mechanism for daily life.
@14 – im an atheist too, but theres no need to insult people. i know what youre getting at, but calling religious people ‘weaker’ just isnt fair. we all have our own ways of making sense of the world, and sometimes other peoples’ ways can seem pretty strange or even downright mad (im talking to you, mr cruise) but insulting each other and being condescending wont help at all. i think its simply that some people need a bit of magic, some special belief that comforts them and makes them find sense in chaos.
just because you or i are content with science explaining what it can, and ascribing the rest to the ‘unknown’ category doesnt mean that a religious person is ‘weak’ for thinking otherwise. perhaps theyve not read all the things you or i have, and perhaps even if they had it wouldnt change their mind – either way, while im a strong advocate of atheism (and often have long, sometimes heated, arguments with my religious friends) i cant see how being rude helps anyone. (if anything, it just confirms the religious persons’ belief that atheists are somehow possessed by the devil, or similar)
@16 – this is not the place for ideological conversation, but i for one dont believe in an afterlife, and i believe that goes for 14 too. so what?
the use of ‘weaker individual’ was a poor choice of words, but 14’s comment had a point, and theres not much sense in dismissing it as ‘ignorance beyond stupidity’ (what’s that supposed to mean btw?)
i cant imagine 14, or i, or any atheist wants to backtrack, but i agree it could have been better worded.
however, im guessing youre a christian? or a jew? or perhaps a muslim? maybe not, but whatever religion you follow (staunchly enough to take such offence to a mere slip of the fingers by 14) you might want to consider its policy on forgiveness??
not sure what you meant by “verbally pharisaical crap” btw – ‘farcical’ perhaps? and if you reread another of your sentences, quoted below, you might think twice before ripping into someone for not wording something 100% brilliantly:
“your blather desiring to been seen as some sort of intellectual reminds me of just how numb people can be on the internet.”
@everone else. sorry for the lectures…
its quite ironic really, imo.
any RS links yet? im curious to watch this – like 6 im intrigued to see if they mention the CIA involvement, or just blame it all on those ‘damn crazy cultists’.
@48 (bish)
I know that. That’s why I had also written “Believe me, there will not be any harm to this world if someone kills the pope or any other big daddy of any formal religion apart from the problems created by his fanatic followers afterwords.”
Plz read b4 posting a comment. cheers
Just like any political party, all institutional religions divide ppl to create factions among themselves in order to create a solid follower base of some silly beliefs. Only to ensure that afterwards these followers will be spending money and accept all kinds of sacrifice so that the religious leaders can live their life lavishly without doing no real job – its all a fraudulent business, very similar to show-business (like magicians/movie stars who also to some extent rely on pseudo-reality) but with lots more dark & negative attributes attached to it.
Powerful institutional religious leaders pull strings secretly from behind to create many problems and crisis in this world so that the ppl who are weaker in their heart and unable to face or cope up with the prob.s on their own will gather at their churches/mosques etc. with the hope of some divine intervention to make their life a bed of rose. they feed them the with idea of a utopian afterlife (heaven/Jannat etc.) so that they stick to these BS beliefs and threaten with an opposite idea (Hell/Naraka/Jahannum etc.)so that they don’t wise up and remain submissive.
What happened at Jonestown was driven by money, drugs, and racial tension.
Jim Jones was a con artist and bigot, arrested for fraud long before he was running a “church”(a subject where I found wiki lacking, books will always be best)
Jones hated black people, but his church was attracting them in droves. So he quieted his bigotry for long enough to open Jonestown, which was really a plantation. The blacks didn’t get any rights, they had to toil and work the fields while Jones’ “sergeants” and guards were ALL white. The suicide only came because of pressure from the American government and it wasn’t psychology that made everyone die, it was FORCE. When the time came anyone in the audience who started dissent was taken outside immediately, beaten until they cooperated, then integrated back into the group. The only ones that survived were his lawyers and a few that fled into the dense Guyana jungle.
Religion(as much as I hate it) is not to blame for this one, it was just a tool being used by a common con man to fuel his need for money and power.
@33 Crinan
“Religion has no proof”
That’s why it’s called faith. If there was proof there’d be no need for faith now would there? And for your sake I hope you’re not conflating ‘evidence’ with ‘proof.’
@44 Scott Wolf
“Honestly I don’t get how people can join things like Scientology when there is something like the Jonestown Massacre to remind you what happens when you stopping using your common sense.”
I think they call it brainwashing.
“…and the Christian Right.”
Two words: extreme fundamentalism.
@47 Johney666
LOL. You mean just ‘nuke ‘em all?’ I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Humans are creatures of habit and tradition and since religion has been around since the dawn of man, I highly doubt it’s going away because of technology. And no matter how ridiculously similar their beliefs all are to you, we have to seriously protect society from the groups that are actually dangerous.
@51 Johney666
Those kinds of activities occur everywhere but not all religious institutional leader condone or do them.
Well thank God not all institutional religions are intended that way!
You seem to be overgeneralizing religion and conflating it with cults and politics.
@27
How about researching the topics you show your ignorance about before you classify something as “spreading fear”? What governments of today do through the media is spreading fear. I’m about spreading information and education to counter baseless reactionary fear. I gave some links so you had a starting point to find out for yourselves if this documentary is spreading disinformation, lies or perhaps some version of the truth.
“Fear is the mind killer.”
Are you the antichrist???
http://www.jaspax.com/antichrist/
@53 wah
“Well thank God not all institutional religions are intended that way!”
Yes they are – directly or indirectly. The ones with humanitarian missions etc. are actually the masks that are being used to lure the would be preys and to make the process of filling their head with BS look as “divine” and harmless as possible. No jihadi is born with a kalashnikov in hand nor does they pick it up the first day they come to know about islam. It’s a slow but steady process of mass mind poisoning.
And no I didn’t mean to “Just nuke them all”… I was just explaining a supposed situation and it’s possible outcome. The way things happen & 5hit…
“You seem to be overgeneralizing religion and conflating it with cults and politics.”
You again failed to understand my POV my friend. I was just compairing their similarities which is so obvious but always kept from ppl’s eye by the formal religions, their followers (because we like to believe – just like we like to be thrilled!) and media.
And finally, no man, technological advances are just one aspect of it. The way the our progress is headed, we’ve already conquared the so called “heaven”. Life itself has been created in lab only this week (Ref. http://news.google.com/?ned=us&ncl=1126861345&hl=en&topic=t). All of this is gradually making us to understand the fact that in order to be religious it is no longer required to believe in the existance of any so called supreme being e.g. god/allah etc. It is almost like when a child grows up and slowly but somehow treaches to the conclusion that there is no real santa ( oops
!! ).
You know, he did bring people of all races together in those times. He wasn’t exactly a rascist.
SATAN is the best scammer this world had ever known so don’t let your soul get scammed.
Satan wanted you to believe that:
1. You have plenty of times in this earth, spend the rest in sins and when your old then know Jesus and be saved.
a. Play online games forever
b. Do whatever you want.
2. After death you’ll live forever. Yes but in hell with him
3. Live and be merry for tomorrow you will die.
Hey, nice post ReeGed ! Good thing you picked this one up, as I noticed it yesterday and was going to post about it later on when I had time. Your write-up was well done, and I was discussing the Jonestown suicides with a friend yesterday, coincidentally before the release by remax came out.
@56 Johnny666
“Yes they are – directly or indirectly. The ones with humanitarian missions etc. are actually the masks that are being used to lure the would be preys and to make the process of filling their head with BS look as “divine” and harmless as possible. No jihadi is born with a kalashnikov in hand nor does they pick it up the first day they come to know about islam. It’s a slow but steady process of mass mind poisoning.”
That’s exactly what I mean when I say you’re overgeneralizing. You’re saying that even 11-year olds who read the story of noah for instance are all part of a global conspiracy to ‘destroy the world.’
“you again failed to understand my POV my friend. I was just compairing their similarities which is so obvious but always kept from ppl’s eye by the formal religions, their followers (because we like to believe – just like we like to be thrilled!) and media.”
Then you’re extrapolating their similarities into the same ulterior motive, and your logic would include all governments, organizations, industries and institutions. Which reiterates my point that you’re overgeneralizing and conflating everything, which appears that you are a conspiracy nut.
“The way the our progress is headed, we’ve already conquared the so called “heaven”. Life itself has been created in lab only this week (Ref. http://news.google.com/?ned=us&ncl=1126861345&hl=en&topic=t).”
LOL. I’d hardly call that impressive. Show me an article where a human hand is creating from scratching and you might start sounding convincing.
@60 wah
No matter how strange it may sound buddy, but yes “even 11-year olds who read the story of noah for instance are all part of a global conspiracy” for sure. Willingly or unwillingly they are playing /taking up the part of victims in this massive pattern.But I would rather call it a conspiracy to divide ppl to have the ultimate control over their life and mind with the help of false beliefs embedded in their psyche. Not to ‘destroy the world.’ as you are saying by “overgeneralizing” my POV (may be on parpose). there is no benefit in there for them if they simply ‘destroy the world.’ No sir, that was not their intention when there was inquisition/witch-hunt or when they tortured bruno, Gallileo & the likes. That never is/was their intention.
And if “all governments, organizations, industries and institutions” were actually not a part of it, formal religions would have lost their importance/relevance even more in the modern day context. Yest, other well known establishments like teh “governments, organizations, industries and institutions” do help them. It’s like you scatch my back and I’ll scratch yours. Protecting the interest of the king /ruler of the land was one of the prime reasons behind the creation of almost all old age formal religions in the ancient era. And there are many cases in history where the ruler himself was declared god/divine or having hotline connection with heaven
. Where it was not like that, then there the main religious big daddy of that country will have some kind of sweet secret understanding with the ruler (this is still in practice). Traditionally for ages politics, economics and religion have supported each other for their mutual benefit. If u can gather a group of ppl easily on the basis of anything common, your job becomes way lot easier. That’s like old age demography in action. But slowly that pattern is changing. There is significant change in the modern age as old religious beliefs are rapidly losing relevance. Call me names if u must but the facts are right in front of our own eyes and you my friend, you’ve chosen to keep your’s shut (perhaps intentionally?).
“LOL. I’d hardly call that impressive. Show me an article where a human hand is creating from scratching and you might start sounding convincing.”
Come on buddy who are you fooling but yourself? Was the 1st Mercedes launched the day after the wheel was invented? Progress is a lengthy and ongoing process. Now already we can produce a synthetic genome. Recently Human embryo was created from scatch accidentally during stem cell research (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13198-first-cloned-human-embryo-made-from-skin-cell.html). Well, there are ethical barriers ahead that may delay the process farther. It’s only a matter of days. And enevtually when there will be a 100% assurance that yes we can do it now, we’ll have to ask ourselves whether to go ahead or not.
And that is what I was saying all along – basic sense of right and wrong is well in place in the mind of all sane human beings. Inner voice, conscience whatever you name it, that is the true form of religion – and it does not require any formal religion to be followed, any fictional supreme being ritualistically worshipped etc.
Either way, still no torrent. Darnit!
Private torrent site links:
http://bitnation.com/details.php?id=24789
http://www.torrentbytes.net/details.php?id=9498
@61 Jony
“No matter how strange it may sound buddy, but yes “even 11-year olds who read the story of noah for instance are all part of a global conspiracy” for sure. Willingly or unwillingly they are playing /taking up the part of victims in this massive pattern.But I would rather call it a conspiracy to divide ppl to have the ultimate control over their life and mind with the help of false beliefs embedded in their psyche. Not to ‘destroy the world.’ as you are saying by “overgeneralizing” my POV (may be on parpose). there is no benefit in there for them if they simply ‘destroy the world.’ No sir, that was not their intention when there was inquisition/witch-hunt or when they tortured bruno, Gallileo & the likes. That never is/was their intention.”
Your original statement still overgeneralizes to the point that kids are the perpetrators (or will be), which is simply untrue. I personally know several religious leaders and they don’t appear to me to fit your description at all.
“And if “all governments, organizations, industries and institutions” were actually not a part of it, formal religions would have lost their importance/relevance even more in the modern day context. Yest, other well known establishments like teh “governments, organizations, industries and institutions” do help them. It’s like you scatch my back and I’ll scratch yours. Protecting the interest of the king /ruler of the land was one of the prime reasons behind the creation of almost all old age formal religions in the ancient era. And there are many cases in history where the ruler himself was declared god/divine or having hotline connection with heaven
. Where it was not like that, then there the main religious big daddy of that country will have some kind of sweet secret understanding with the ruler (this is still in practice). Traditionally for ages politics, economics and religion have supported each other for their mutual benefit. If u can gather a group of ppl easily on the basis of anything common, your job becomes way lot easier. That’s like old age demography in action. But slowly that pattern is changing.”
ohhh. you’re one of THOSE people. Seems to me you’re describing a form of fascism. If we want to believe that you’re living in a world controlled by fascists then I feel sorry for you because you’re living in fear all the time in the back of your head.
“There is significant change in the modern age as old religious beliefs are rapidly losing relevance. Call me names if u must but the facts are right in front of our own eyes and you my friend, you’ve chosen to keep your’s shut (perhaps intentionally?).”
Untrue. There’s the new age movement. As long as there’s science people will find a way to merge its views with religious beliefs.
“Come on buddy who are you fooling but yourself? Was the 1st Mercedes launched the day after the wheel was invented? Progress is a lengthy and ongoing process. Now already we can produce a synthetic genome. It’s only a matter of days. And enevtually when there will be a 100% assurance that yes we can do it now, we’ll have to ask ourselves whether to go ahead or not.”
Which is all speculation. And I don’t think God will allow that to happen.
“Recently Human embryo was created from scatch accidentally during stem cell research (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13198-first-cloned-human-embryo-made-from-skin-cell.html).”
It wasn’t created – it was copied. Big difference.
“And that is what I was saying all along – basic sense of right and wrong is well in place in the mind of all sane human beings. Inner voice, conscience whatever you name it, that is the true form of religion – and it does not require any formal religion to be followed, any fictional supreme being ritualistically worshipped etc.”
That’s meaningless all along. Morality doesn’t require anything in itself but if it wants to move a society towards a principle of “equal liberty and justice for all,” then it needs law and order, which comes from centralized sources such as constitutions and books, etc.
@47/50 (Johney666)
- i did read your post, read it again yourself, i was just pointing out that saying ‘there will be not much harm’ if all holy books were burnt is a fairly huge understatement. im sure from the rest of your post that you would agree with me. im just pointing out the need to avoid sweeping statements when dealing with people of a religious bent, otherwise arguments spiral into namecalling, as is already beginning to happen with you and wah.
as it happens, i agree with almost everything youve said, but not how youve said it. the 11 year old reading the noah story, for example, noone seems to have clarified the important distinction that the child is not an active part of the global conformity ‘conspiracy’ but rather a passive one, being indoctrinated by pleasant stories that appear to make sense of a confusing world.
the problem arises when governments play on the differences between religions, and use those differences to create a sense fear and misunderstanding of people of other religions. it works best on the less educated part of any population, who often make up a large proportion of the prevalent religion – they dont know any better, so if someone tells them that Islam teaches muslims to murder all Christians, they dont have any reason to doubt it.
from there its just a small step to having mass ’support our troops’ rallys to force less indoctrinated people to acquiesce to wars which are actually fought not on moral grounds but more spurious ones.
however, i think its hard to write off organised religion altogether – its unifying effect is actually quite positive (if you find an example of a population which shares one religion, its usually a quite happy place) and helps deter anarchy. i like your idea of religion not requiring stories but rather just a sense of decency, but you have to accept that for most people of religious persuasion, its the stories that get them hooked – thats why so many god-squadders look at atheists like theyre insane; ‘what, you dont believe in ANYTHING?’ – of course we atheists believe in stuff, decency, humanity, all the basic principles religious people share. its just that we dont agree with the fairytales which explain WHY such principles are important.
my point is ultimately that thats not enough for some people, now at least. we unbelievers need to do our best to politely and gently educate the believers, and hopefully, one day in the future, everyone will be able to be a good person without needing a heaven to go to, or a hell to avoid. but for now, the stories provide a useful way of keeping those who perhaps havent read as many serious books from total anarchy.
like i say, i hope you realise for the most part i agree with you – i dont want an argument!
I’ve seen a couple docs on Jonestown before, hope this isn’t one of them. Thanks for the post.
less of all this high school debating – where are the RS links???
Bleh private. Don’t want to register.
@65 bish
“the 11 year old reading the noah story, for example, noone seems to have clarified the important distinction that the child is not an active part of the global conformity ‘conspiracy’ but rather a passive one, being indoctrinated by pleasant stories that appear to make sense of a confusing world.”
Bish, that’s not what I was arguing over. So it’s irrelevant. Johny’s theory is that all religion, governments, organizations, industries and institutions are part of a cabal as we speak. So far these claims are still unsubstantiated. Moreover, ‘conspiracy’ is not a light word to be flippantly used to accuse people of, especially when neither of us have actually defined exactly what we mean by ‘conspiracy.’
“the less educated part of any population, who often make up a large proportion of the prevalent religion – they dont know any better, so if someone tells them that Islam teaches muslims to murder all Christians, they dont have any reason to doubt it.”
That’s extreme fundamentalism which can victimize anyone who is a non-believer being expose to such theology for the first time or someone who is already a believer. The people’s education is irrelevant because even the most clever and cunning perps can brainwash the most educated person.
“however, i think its hard to write off organised religion altogether – its unifying effect is actually quite positive (if you find an example of a population which shares one religion, its usually a quite happy place) and helps deter anarchy.”
Why does there have to be even an issue about the positive and negative effects of organized religion? Organized non-religious institutions betray the same positive/negative connotations too.
“i like your idea of religion not requiring stories but rather just a sense of decency, but you have to accept that for most people of religious persuasion, its the stories that get them hooked – thats why so many god-squadders look at atheists like theyre insane; ‘what, you dont believe in ANYTHING?’ – of course we atheists believe in stuff, decency, humanity, all the basic principles religious people share. its just that we dont agree with the fairytales which explain WHY such principles are important.”
The way how I look at it is that these stories you speak of serve as an example of free thinking because they’re simply an alternative to look at the same principle from a different perspective or angle. And I don’t believe they are victims because of that but rather free thinkers.
“we unbelievers need to do our best to politely and gently educate the believers, and hopefully, one day in the future, everyone will be able to be a good person without needing a heaven to go to, or a hell to avoid.”
Now matter how sincere you appear to be, you’re still making yourself out to be very elite and superior.
ok so if god created adam and eve and they were first people on earth can someone that is religious tell me how there are bones showing the evolution of people. also why are there dinosaur bones?
What kind of assumptions do you have? Theistic or naturalistic?
No torrent links ??????????
And where is the heaven which was supposed to be just above the sky?
Remember how that fictitious b4stard punished Adam and eve just because they acuired knowledge, learned to procreate and was making babies without paying him copyright benefits (just like ripping MP3s, DLing torrents haha)! 
@ wah
“It wasn’t created – it was copied. Big difference.” yes the cells were cloned but the synthetic genome was CREATED! We just have to WAIT a bit more – till the whole thing is achievable. And it doesn’t matter if you or your fictitious D0G will like it or not (”And I don’t think God will allow that to happen.”) whenever human race had a set a goal for themselves, they’ve achieved it.
“Now matter how sincere you appear to be, you’re still making yourself out to be very elite and superior.” simply because they are – and the proof is the ongoing progress & advancement of our species.
“As long as there’s science people will find a way to merge its views with religious beliefs.” Sinence is was and always will be teir. You just need an analytical mind to invent and discover stuff. And that can only be done by questioning the conventions of nature not by believing blindly and taking evry thing for granted as if they are offerings from heaven. Also the concept of god is a bit like MPAA or RIAA
“then it needs law and order, which comes from centralized sources such as constitutions and books, etc.” Finally u also agree just what Johney666 had said: “Nowadays we have constitutions and law books for this. So even if we thow away or bunr down all the bible, Korran etc. There will not be much harm.” Though his attitude is a bit extreme imo. We don’t actually need fake religious beliefs to have a healthy society or civilisation;
So if anyone has this and wants to post some rapidshare links it would make a great vid to watch over dinner tomorrow, for real. Thanks
@74 tesla
“yes the cells were cloned but the synthetic genome was CREATED!”
And that wouldn’t have been possible w/o the cells in the first place, let alone a prototype model! So it’s not like they pulled it out of their ‘magic hats.’
“We just have to WAIT a bit more – till the whole thing is achievable.”
LOL. Which is all speculation at this point. It’s not set in stone that it’s going to happen.
“whenever human race had a set a goal for themselves, they’ve achieved it.”
and it always turned out skewed in a way.
“simply because they are – and the proof is the ongoing progress & advancement of our species.”
Is that suppose to be a joke?
“Sinence is was and always will be teir.”
“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” – Jastrow
“You just need an analytical mind to invent and discover stuff.”
Like the cave men who invented the hatchet, fire and wheel?
“And that can only be done by questioning the conventions of nature not by believing blindly and taking evry thing for granted as if they are offerings from heaven.”
Interesting opinion but the fathers of almost every discipline of modern science began to discover nature because they believed that God created it.
“Also the concept of god is a bit like MPAA or RIAA. Remember how that fictitious b4stard punished Adam and eve just because they acuired knowledge, learned to procreate and was making babies without paying him copyright benefits (just like ripping MP3s, DLing torrents haha)!”
Your logical fallacy is conflation. ;|
“Finally u also agree just what Johney666 had said:”
Technically yes but since he was taking it out of its original context I had to put it in the proper conceptual framework.
“We don’t actually need fake religious beliefs to have a healthy society or civilisation”
Well there are healthy society’s that have very little to do, or relatively nothing to do, with religion at all. But I wouldn’t use the word ‘civilisation.’ That’d be too broad of a concept to apply to. And calling religious beliefs fake isn’t going to make you look any smarter than how asinine you appear to be my friend.
I can’t manage to get into any private sites that actually have this doc; if anyone has any leads on any live torrents for this, I’ll seed! Trust me I’ll seed! I’m watching the one eNigma333 posted earlier ( http://www.mininova.org/tor/850938 ) and it’s very good.
@wah 69
first off, do you have to quote everything??
personally, i think you misunderstood johney’s (any chance of you spelling his name right?) theory actually, not me. i dont suppose for a minute he’s naive enough to suggest that all religions are colluding to oppress the masses, but rather that they all do so, simply by merit of the fact that thats the whole point of organised religion – to breed conformity and thus strengthen whatever particular social group they happen to dominate.
just because someone makes a point that you havent mentioned does not make it irrelevant
i put conspiracy in ’speech marks’ because it was your choice of word (60 – “That’s exactly what I mean when I say you’re overgeneralizing. You’re saying that even 11-year olds who read the story of noah for instance are all part of a global conspiracy to ‘destroy the world.’”), im not using it flippantly at all, but quite the opposite – i was highlighting my discomfort about using any such word, since it is obviously strongly associated with the theories of madmen.
secondly, what i was talking about was not extreme fundamentalism. not at all. i used the example of inciting fear of islamic fundamentalism because its one most people have some awareness of. my point is simply (and i was actually just trying to reiterate what i think johney was saying, though i may have misunderstood him, just as you misunderstood me) that the process of learning stories from holy books creates a sense of trust between the individual and the religion – once that trust has been established, at as early an age as possible, the religion can say just about whatever it wants, and *the less educated* will accept it without question.
education of the individual is not irrelevant here, as it has been shown that the more educated one is, the less likely one is to unquestioningly accept the prevalent ideas and opinions of one’s adopted religion – ie, the more educated one is, the more likely one is to form political and social opinions independently.
im not saying clever people dont get brainwashed; im saying that less educated (which is different from both uneducated and/or stupid) people are less likely to ask questions and form their own opinions if their religion tells them something as ‘fact’.
“Why does there have to be even an issue about the positive and negative effects of organized religion?”
- thats surely the whole point of the discussion here? at any rate, the prime distinction between religious and non-religious institutions would be the fact that, with the exception of societal law, most non-religious institutions only attempt to feed us localised, specific ideas – ie, apple may try to persuade me to buy an iphone, an ipod and a macbook, but no matter how much steve jobs’ products resemble (or try to) lifestyle choices, steve isnt trying to make me think the way he thinks.
i agree that religious stories present an alternative, more accessible perspective on complex ideas – indeed, if you read what i was saying, that was my whole point all along – but i dont see how you can argue that encouraging people to BELIEVE these stories is an example of free thinking. its the exact opposite – free thinking is about discerning for oneself ones opinions/ideas/beliefs/whatever. the stories in religious texts spoonfeed a particular angle on whatever subject they concern; while there may be some room for interpretation, for the most part, organised religious institutions attempt to present themselves as having a monopoly on the truth of these matters. if the individual has been suitably indoctrinated from an early age (reading about noah, or whatever), they are more prone to accept wholesale their religion’s viewpoint on any given matter.
and it may seem that im making myself out to be elite and superior. i would argue that in actual fact, in the final words of my last comment i was rather expressing my belief that being able to appreciate the nuances of human life without being told what to think *is* better than otherwise. i dont actually believe myself, or johney to be superior to you, or belonging to a more elite group than you do. everyone has the capacity to understand what little we know of the universe without having to fall back on outdated allegories. i simply think its unfortunate that more people do not, and for this reason i was expressing my wish that people like johney could be a little more gentle when dealing with people like you, because noone will listen to someone who is insulting them.
if anything i have said has insulted you, then forgive me – that was never my intention.
anyway, thats it, im done. ive said my bit and reiterated it more than enough…
sorry to everyone whos been bored by this ‘high school’ debating. wasnt my fault, i didnt start it, etc etc.
Well this hight school debating is getting interresting by the huour! I don’t remember readind comments in any other posts never ever in this site. ThanX both to wah & bish
And yesh bish it seems u can clearly understand my POV. Just like I can understand the difference between your’s and mine.
I just think as old bad habits are really hard to leave, and when it is as harmful as institutionalized religion, and also considering the extent of its effect, well some times drastic actions are needed! Just my POV, not like I’m going to gather ppl and start another movement…
ThanX again NEways to both of yous…
test
“but rather that they all do so, simply by merit of the fact that thats the whole point of organised religion – to breed conformity and thus strengthen whatever particular social group they happen to dominate”
That’s meaningless. That’s the whole point of most types of organizations, governments, institutions, industries, companies, businesses, families, etc. Unity. Strength. Leader/follower or dominator/submitter. You’re merely giving it a negative connotation and exclusively applying it organised religion.
“just because someone makes a point that you havent mentioned does not make it irrelevant”
Then your point is a strawman.
“i put conspiracy in ’speech marks’ because it was your choice of word”
I used the word to reveal what johny was falsely describing. Yet you still failed to clarify what should be meant by the situation, instead you continued to use the word anyhow.
“im not using it flippantly at all, but quite the opposite – i was highlighting my discomfort about using any such word,”
Then you should’ve used a different term; otherwise, you’re still misunderstanding what the word actually means given the circumstance.
“secondly, what i was talking about was not extreme fundamentalism. not at all. i used the example of inciting fear of islamic fundamentalism because its one most people have some awareness of. my point is simply (and i was actually just trying to reiterate what i think johney was saying, though i may have misunderstood him, just as you misunderstood me) that the process of learning stories from holy books creates a sense of trust between the individual and the religion – once that trust has been established, at as early an age as possible, the religion can say just about whatever it wants, and *the less educated* will accept it without question.”
Again with the “less educated.” I’ve seen and heard some of “the most educated person” blindly accept it and “the least educated person” reject it. So “education” is not a factor IMO, if by what you mean is some form of intellectualism. What I’d classify them are either really humble persons who are intuitive or really prideful persons who reason and observe.
“education of the individual is not irrelevant here, as it has been shown that the more educated one is, the less likely one is to unquestioningly accept the prevalent ideas and opinions of one’s adopted religion – ie, the more educated one is, the more likely one is to form political and social opinions independently.
im not saying clever people dont get brainwashed; im saying that less educated (which is different from both uneducated and/or stupid) people are less likely to ask questions and form their own opinions if their religion tells them something as ‘fact’.”
Not as I see it. It only appears to you that education is a contributing factor. But the real factor is the level of humbleness versus pride like the above.
“- thats surely the whole point of the discussion here? at any rate, the prime distinction between religious and non-religious institutions would be the fact that, with the exception of societal law, most non-religious institutions only attempt to feed us localised, specific ideas – ie, apple may try to persuade me to buy an iphone, an ipod and a macbook, but no matter how much steve jobs’ products resemble (or try to) lifestyle choices, steve isnt trying to make me think the way he thinks.”
What? That doesn’t prove nothing. It seems you’re pulling out the example out of your hat to fit your logic. The US media would be guilty of such persuasion. Commercialism, materialism and consumerism and the advertising marketing industry all change the way we think. Hollywood can certainly influence how we think. Books, videos, seminars, martial arts disciplinary, etc can conform our way of thinking. Communist countries, which are mostly atheistic, do try to make people conform to ideas. So that concept isn’t exclusive to organised religion, which you’ve seemed to suggest.
“but i dont see how you can argue that encouraging people to BELIEVE these stories is an example of free thinking.”
I wasn’t. People should be encouraged to READ the stories themselves instead of having it spoon-fed to them. That is free thinking.
“free thinking is about discerning for oneself ones opinions/ideas/beliefs/whatever.”
That’s what studying is for.
“the stories in religious texts spoonfeed a particular angle on whatever subject they concern; while there may be some room for interpretation,”
That’s no different than reading writings from Aristotle or Shakespeare to U.S. textbook of world history. It’s the person who presents it to you that spoon-feeds it to you. You study the stories to see if it agrees with other people’s interpretations. Then you make up your mind.
“organised religious institutions attempt to present themselves as having a monopoly on the truth of these matters.”
You mean like the Roman Catholic Church? Or Protestant denominations? Sure. But I hope you know that’s not true in all cases, for instance, non-denoms.
“appreciate the nuances of human life without being told what to think *is* better than otherwise.”
True. Most religious institutions are like that, generally that’s how it is (apostolic churches for instance,) but to make a overgeneralized statement that all institutional religions are, is simply ignorant. Some religious leaders I know actually encourage their followers to think for themselves by challenging their own views.
@79 Johney666
“I just think as old bad habits are really hard to leave”
Humans are creatures of habit you know.
“and when it is as harmful as institutionalized religion, and also considering the extent of its effect”
If you’re going to bring up the harmful effects of institutionalized religion, you’d better be prepared to talk about the atrocities committed by secular fundamentalists, atheists, agnostics, and everyone else on the planet.
;D
@82 wah
Name 1 case of an atheist killing someone in the name of atheistm. Please understand that “this guy was an atheist and he did this” will not do because we would then have to blame on religion every death caused by a religious person.
I want you to name 1 example in which a guy killed another claiming that atheism was the cause and he was doing it in its name…
Costa200
January 31st, 2008 | 13:44
@82 wah
Name 1 case of an atheist killing someone in the name of atheistm. Please understand that “this guy was an atheist and he did this” will not do because we would then have to blame on religion every death caused by a religious person.
I want you to name 1 example in which a guy killed another claiming that atheism was the cause and he was doing it in its name…
———————–
Ok Einstein, How bout Stalin-Mao-Pol Pot-ETA-the Shining Path-FARC-Maoist rebels in Nepal-the LTTE and the Red Brigades, just to name a few names for you. Total combined deaths and murders by just these animals alone come close to almost 1 billion people since 1918. For your feeble intelligence to grasp a number that high according to world history and UN records, that would be the complete population of Europe three times over, or the complete population of the US 2 and 1/2 times over.
Want to remove the foot from your mouth now bunky? Or are you really that attracted to the taste of Dr.Sholes and Desenex?
@76 wah
“And that wouldn’t have been possible w/o the cells in the first place, let alone a prototype model! So it’s not like they pulled it out of their ‘magic hats.’” That’s the cr4piest BS I’ve heard this year so far. Cell is not the buiding block of Genome rather the opposite is somewhat true. You don’t plan to make the car first without inventing the wheel. So now we have “wheel”, reseach in this new field is well set in motion and it is ONLY A MATTER OF TIME when we will have the “car” also. And yes they ACTUALY had created the synthetic genome from scratch! Not only that, they successfully embebbed secret messeges in the form of protein / amino acid structure in that genome! How cool! Read this to open your eyes: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/29/science/29genome.html?ref=science
“and it always turned out skewed in a way.” So do you suggest that we live the solical advancement behind and run off to jungle or something butt naked to embrace pre-historic lifestyle again? I bet it will make easier for the preacher kind of ppl like you then to start brainwashing ppl again bcoz as soon as they will try to comprehend the world around them out of curious human nature, you will start giving them lies, fantasies BS and what not, and say everything that they see around them is god’s creation – it’s raining from the sky bcoz god has something to do with it etc. If you are so dead against scientific advancements, then start ling the life of a caveman and then say it! Oh wait, cavemen also had invented tools – bcoz even then at the dawn of human civilisation, they understood / felt the importance of scientific study of nature with their limited capabilities.
“If you’re going to bring up the harmful effects of institutionalized religion,…” Nothing, yes I mean othing has harmed us more than “institutionalized religion”. And you also seem to somewhat reluctantly accept that when you say “True. Most religious institutions are like that” but intentionally we chose to look the other way intentionally may be bcoz as Johney666 said: “…so obvious but always kept from ppl’s eye by the formal religions, their followers (because we like to believe – just like we like to be thrilled!)…” . The mindless killing, the brainwashing, the plots to divide men and control their way of life all still continuing. Yes, you may say that the same thing is being done by politics also for example… well that’s where Johney666’s explanation comes in… thre are similarities between them.
“You mean like the Roman Catholic Church? Or Protestant denominations? Sure. But I hope you know that’s not true in all cases, for instance, non-denoms.” I don’t see the ones in your good book ever raise voice against the wrong doings of the bad ones. Makes me wonder what kind of secret understanding they have between them! With threir meaningful silence, they are just as harmfull as the bad ones imo. And they are also actively involved in brainwashing ppl with fairy tales in the same manner.
Finally, this just in: Bush says, Stem cells from skin a “landmark,” refering to the experiment that accidentally resulted in creation of some cloned human embyos too (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN28530969), while the old fcuk-king b4stard, the sick papa at vatican says “some science shatters human dignity” just as expected as he is seeing his circus show is slowly moving towards the way out as the divine genesis theory is now clearly proven to be a mere fairy tale (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=pope-says-some-science-sh)
“Name 1 case of an atheist killing someone in the name of atheistm. Please understand that “this guy was an atheist and he did this” will not do because we would then have to blame on religion every death caused by a religious person.
I want you to name 1 example in which a guy killed another claiming that atheism was the cause and he was doing it in its name…”
Wait a minute — you’re trying to “de-criminalize” the atrocities committed by atheists because they don’t do them in the name of atheism?
“That’s the cr4piest BS I’ve heard this year so far. Cell is not the buiding block of Genome rather the opposite is somewhat true. You don’t plan to make the car first without inventing the wheel. So now we have “wheel”, reseach in this new field is well set in motion and it is ONLY A MATTER OF TIME when we will have the “car” also. And yes they ACTUALY had created the synthetic genome from scratch! Not only that, they successfully embebbed secret messeges in the form of protein / amino acid structure in that genome! How cool! Read this to open your eyes: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/29/science/29genome.html?ref=science”
Seems like a big leap of faith to be taking considering that for about 2 and a half centuries we have been simply pioneering into an untreated waters and have recently accidentally progressed and are now basing our research mostly on educated post-guesswork. IMO, it’s too early to “set it stone” since there are so many obstacles that humans can only overcome. Not that I doubt the capability of man but we’re not without our limits. It was only a couple of decade ago that scientists were 100% sure that we’d have flying cars by the year 2000. But obviously I’m not enthusiastic about these kinds of things as you are.
“So do you suggest that we live the solical advancement behind and run off to jungle or something butt naked to embrace pre-historic lifestyle again? I bet it will make easier for the preacher kind of ppl like you then to start brainwashing ppl again bcoz as soon as they will try to comprehend the world around them out of curious human nature, you will start giving them lies, fantasies BS and what not, and say everything that they see around them is god’s creation – it’s raining from the sky bcoz god has something to do with it etc.”
That’s a major non-sequitur fallacy you have.
“If you are so dead against scientific advancements, then start ling the life of a caveman and then say it! Oh wait, cavemen also had invented tools – bcoz even then at the dawn of human civilisation, they understood / felt the importance of scientific study of nature with their limited capabilities.”
I never said I was against scientific advancements, unless it’s something like Dr. Mengele’s ‘mission for scientific advancement.’ I have a problem with the fallible presuppositions that you use to make a theory out of from fact.
“I don’t see the ones in your good book ever raise voice against the wrong doings of the bad ones. Makes me wonder what kind of secret understanding they have between them! With threir meaningful silence, they are just as harmfull as the bad ones imo. And they are also actively involved in brainwashing ppl with fairy tales in the same manner.”
That’s because you’ve never studied it or taken a class on history of religion. So it seems.
“Finally, this just in: Bush says, Stem cells from skin a “landmark,” refering to the experiment that accidentally resulted in creation of some cloned human embyos too (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN28530969),”
I’d take his quote with a grain of salt.
“while the old fcuk-king b4stard, the sick papa at vatican says “some science shatters human dignity” just as expected as he is seeing his circus show is slowly moving towards the way out as the divine genesis theory is now clearly proven to be a mere fairy tale”
The last point you’re making here ends up as a infinite regression logical fallacy.
“(http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=pope-says-some-science-sh)”"
It appears to me that the pope is against scientific advancement ONLY if it’s unethical. But in this case it’d be like a form of abortion, killing an unborn human being, which is unethical.
wah…please stop using logic, you’re confusing them.
And this is the crap the schools are turning out today. Half of these posters could not find the state they live in if you gave them a map and arrows pointing directly to it. Ask them who their Congressmember is or Senator and they look at you with a complete blank expression. Ask them about the Monroe Doctrine and they dont know. Ask them about the mayflower Charter and they think it was a cruise ship.
yet they spew the most idiotic and racist venom this side of the KKK, and let us not forget they can recite from memory the stats of a sports person.
someone has the priorities skewed way out of joint.
dan…LOL. Thanks for your support!
Sounds like someone’s bark is worse than their bite.
Has anyone found a torrent yet for storyville jonestown documentary. Although it was on bbc 2 it is not available on iplayer as the bbc dont have the rights to it. I missed this doc and would be thankful to anyone who can post a link to a torrent for this doc
Damn still checking back for this one. BBC always comes correct with their docu’s.
i have spent all day looking for any links or torrents, its not even on youtube. People at work who saw it said it was a really nice eye opener and a great docu. Im sure someone out there must have taped it
Anyone?
They taped it already. But noone made it public..
OMG sorry, it’s the first time I’ve posted links lol how do I put that right? A little help?!
ReeGed: Fixed
ps. the religious discussion above is ridiculous lol why do you all think that:
a) you can bring others round to your way of thinking and
b) others want you to try and bring them round to your way of thinking
How totally arrogant…
The best account: Disc 4 and 5 Evidence of Revision–watch it on google, some snippets available on uTube.
It was murder by gunshot and cyanide injection
Gristly and FUBAR
Before it was Jonestown, the surrounding area was used by the CIA to train black mercenaries for some beat down in Angola.