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NOVA Judgement Day-Intelligent Design on Trial HDTV XviD-MiRAGETV

Posted on 18.11.2007 at 07:53 in TV Shows by Mr. X

Intelligent design makes people stupid, Kevin Padian of UC Berkely says. The war on evolution, is the ever encroaching backwards thought method of the intelligent design conspiracy theorists, a grandiose mega-scale conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory behind creationism is that a magical man in the sky created everything. The goal of intelligent design is to re-Christianize American society, as Eugenie C Scott Nat’l Ctr for Science Education says. This special two-part NOVA series professionally re-creates the showdown between intelligent design and evolution in a courtroom in Dover, Pennsylvania with complete transcripts from the court case.

It all started when, in 2004, the Pennsylvania school board established a policy that science teachers would have to read a statement to biology students suggesting that there is an alternative to Darwin’s theory of evolution called intelligent design. The Dover high school science teachers refused to comply with the policy, refused to read the statement. And parents opposed to the school board’s actions filed a lawsuit in federal court. Then followed a six week trial, and this two-part NOVA documentary tries to cover it as completely and both-sided as possible. Check the NOVA ID homepage for lots more about the show. Many thanks to cool group MiRAGETV for ripping in great quality. Go ahead, disagree or agree in the comments, just keep it under control hopefully . It would also help to shape your response if you download and watch the show first, and then you would be able to make a much more intelligent response.

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aaa

November 18th, 2007 | 07:56

i got pole position on this one
David

November 18th, 2007 | 08:08

1st pic is from future weapons, wrong link?
Scott Wolf

November 18th, 2007 | 08:13

Definitely worth a download if you haven’t watched this documentary.

Though as an American I’m pretty embarrassed that this kind of debate had to happen in the first place. The Christian Right is destroying my country.
deadpan

November 18th, 2007 | 08:37

i saw the last half of this, was great. i also cant believe how people can ignore such clear evidence. all to justify their life in a godless world, or have they not heard, god is dead.
[]D[][]v[][]D

November 18th, 2007 | 08:48

prase jeebus
manzekl

November 18th, 2007 | 08:58

go ahead, revel in the masochistic pleasure of believing in a non-existent entity and trembling in its fear.

Nature takes its own course, and it will……no prayers, no masses can change it idiots
robespierre

November 18th, 2007 | 09:04

well they are all rights and all wrongs

scientifically Darwin’s theory of evolution is in crisis,with modern molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics knowledge that support different evidences

and on the other hand whatever religion or cult you are running,you do it
by firm belief and not scientific facts,otherwise you are trying to explain the
unexplainable
Andrew

November 18th, 2007 | 09:11

I believe the attempt to teach the flawed ID theory in schools and therefore gain acceptance in the wider public domain is an attack on Christianity itself.

I see the debate as a cynical attempt to deny ones ability to reason and sow the seeds of division and hate while wearing GOD on their sleeve (instead of in their hearts)

The very core and strength of the Christian faith is the ability to see the world as it is and still believe in our lord GOD.

It’s unfortunate that some people who call themselves Christian can’t do just that.
jonnyBoy

November 18th, 2007 | 09:18

You know we can all be in a hot debate over who is right or who is wrong OR we can all just leave people up to their own decisions about what they want to believe.

If you’re right, good for you; if you’re wrong, well that sucks.

Whatever man.
robespierre

November 18th, 2007 | 09:28

i dont get this one,there are so many debates at the same time in the same
documentary

like showing a picture of so many guns against the wall,,,wrong picture i guess
or is it about non democratic involvement in the school system
or to separate clergy from the state
or to separate the clergy from the law system if not from the state

it is my believe that in the usa,they are not dissociable,therefore they need
one another,unless there is a major structural changes in the code of law
fondation,these things will always happen
ZombieBunny

November 18th, 2007 | 09:45

When did Christianity become more about questioning science and less about learning about empathy and compassion? Has anyone ever considered that maybe God doesnt really care if we think we evolved from monkeys or not, he gave us the freedom of thought for a reason.

Your going down a dangerous path if religion dictates whats being thought in schools.

robespierre, actually not all religions deny science over their chosen faith. The Dalai Lama for example shows a good example of being a practicing buddhist believes that if science can conclusively demonstrate certain Buddhist claims to be false, it would be acceptable to abandon those claims in favor of science. I think thats a healthy perspective on religon and perhaps we really should abandon religious values that no longer are valid due to science, democracy and human rights.
LeFF

November 18th, 2007 | 09:54

Tracker sending invalid data o.O?
alalalalaleach

November 18th, 2007 | 09:59

anyone knows whats going on with thepiratebay tracker? getting redirected to moviex.info???
Pete

November 18th, 2007 | 10:09

A man walks into a room holding a rock and shows some people the rock. He walks back out and comes back in with a women beside him. He tells the people in the room, “that rock has turned into this woman.” The people hiss and boo him out of the room as a moron.

He walks into another room filled with some evolutionists scholars who’se whole career is based on this theory, he does the same routine but says “that rock is now a woman after billions of years”. The evolutionists applaud him!

Why woudl a rock ever change? The fossil record shows no trans species records. And in fact it shows the opposite, that all things are as they are and ever were – and dont change or mutate. This is not science its a fanciful story, the evolutionist has already said ‘There is no God’, and will seek to prove himself correct. Science should not start with an outcome “there is no God”, but it shoudl look at the evidence alone. Anything else is lies, you are being taught by people that think they are ‘intellectual’. Do the research dont be lazy!
tmsgabber

November 18th, 2007 | 10:13

Wow, sure are some bright bulbs around here. Maybe some of us out here like to believe that one day we will be held accountable for our actions. I would much rather have someone who believed in a loving God running this country, expecting each American to actually work and earn a living and contribute to a civilized law abiding society, than a bunch of pillow-biting, ass-eating, butthole bandits, and freak liberals who think that the government is here to give free living to the lazy people who think they are owed something. For the freedom to say stupid things, everyone owes America and its founding fathers, who besides giving us the power of electricity, and every modern thing we have, whom all also believed in a loving God enough to leave their dictatorship, venture to a new place, and start the greatest country in the world. Back in their time, people who didn’t believe in their God were left in jolly ole England. Famous atheist and British philosopher Antony Flew stated in a phone interview just recently “A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature” and acknowledges that “My one and only piece of relevant evidence [for an Aristotelian God] is the apparent impossibility of providing a naturalistic theory of the origin from DNA of the first reproducing species … [In fact] the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a First Cause God is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms.”
. Galileo, Descartes, Isaac Newton , Robert Boyle, William Thomson Kelvin, and to read about what Albert Einstein believed go here http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html
Me personally, I think I will side with some of the greatest minds in the worlds history than with the liberals and anti-social freaks who blast their puke and idiocy from their porn laced computers, weak minded,feeble, selfish ideologies, and emotional closedmindedness that will only lead to a hopelessness that, I am thankful to the God I believe in, will never happen to me!!! Science has been helping to prove Intelligent Design for decades. In the 1800’s it was not known as Int. Des. but as ‘The argument from design’. Thoughts quotes from letters from Darwin to many people can be found here http://www.creator-creation.com/darwin.htm
as well as the controversial Lady Hope “story” here http://www.carm.org/evo_questions/deathbed.htm.
Wow, even someone as depraved as Jeffrey Dahmer, who had always believed that there was no moral authority, that whatever you do is fine and when you die you go back to nothingness, came to a personal belief in Jesus Christ. Do you know why he was killed? Because, after his professing a belief in JC on national television, some inmates could not bear to think that someone that did the horrible things he did could believe that he could be saved and go to heaven, and what about the people he murdered? What a sad, nothing to look forward to life it must be to not have something to believe in. No, that isn’t the wind on your face, it is your imagination. Since you can’t see it, it must not be there, but you can see it sway a tree or bush. If you can believe that the wind is there by the effects of that wind, then the possibility exists that a God that you can’t see does exist because of the effects that He has. You can’t put God in a test tube and say “This is God” any more than you can put a mother’s love in a test tube and say “This is a mother’s love.” Use your brains for something else, please, other than to bash people or a God you choose not to know!!! Life – God = a whole lot of chaos and hell!!!
robespierre

November 18th, 2007 | 10:20

well the world was flat not round and the earth was in the middle
of the universe,and spain was eliminating a whole continent
in the name of god,while the king of england changed religion
in order to change wife.

god was always in the hands of the wrong people..

but modern society have their laws based on a mix of religious
belief and human values at the time the code was written
call it the amendment or the equivalent elsewhere..
so they are handtight into it,and have to follow their own
set of rules,unless major amendments are made,,

no judgement of value made here,these are facts
Zel

November 18th, 2007 | 10:35

I believe we were intelligently designed to evolve like we did.
robespierre

November 18th, 2007 | 10:39

@17 some people should ask for a refund
Darth Arcon

November 18th, 2007 | 10:43

I find it absolutely adorable you believe whatever you hear. As far as I know, there has never been absolute proof that any religion, which btw includes evolution, is true.

What I find amusing is that people come on here and see, “The evil creationists are destroying my country!” I think that every evolutionist that didnt agree with the ruling that required confirmation that there were other beliefs than your own are simple minded idiots…why? Well, you see it as Christians forcing their belief down your throat. However, intelligent people, who just so happen to have a mind, would see it as giving a choice. The thing that boggles my mind is that even though the teachers were “forced” to declare there are alternate beliefs, they still taught their own belief…Wait, that doesnt sound right…your mad that you need to admit there are other people that believe other things than you, yet you STILL get unilateral authority to teach what you believe and nothing else…that is…stupidity at its worst!

YES, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE SOMETHING THAT YOU DONT! It would be better for the entire country if you selfish pricks understood that fact…

All I ever see in the news is people saying intelligent design is being evil…Ive never understood that. They didnt force you to teach their side! They just wanted you to confirm they existed!

Time for personal responses:

@3
Why would you be embarrassed that you live in a country with many different people that believe many different things? Does it upset you that there might be a disagreement? Do you even have a brain? The reason America is great is because it gives everybody a chance to think whatever they want to think. Sorry to break it to you, but this is America. Why dont you go move to China…youll be happier there…

@4
What your saying is that this gives all the evidence to prove your opinion…hmm…opinion != fact…or did I miss something?

@8
Wow, I dont think I have ever read anything quite like that before. Lemme just rephrase EXACTLY what you just said, so us dummies can understand it better…”Dont teach everything, just teach one thing. That way, it will be easier for us to decide what is right!” Just gotta say again…wow…wow……hmm…personally I think that is too easy to criticize…

@9
That is a very intelligent thing to say. Yet, somehow it doesnt fit…What am I debating about? I saw a bunch of idiots blowing something way out of reality, so I came in to correct the mistake. Am I trying to debate on whether ID or evolution is true…no. Im trying to preserve the right for you to decide. So yeah, your pretty smart, but just saying that wont help…

@10
While what you say is, IMO, quite true, I dont think that is going to help your cause…

@11
You are very mistaken. In fact, I take offense to that. Why? Well, what your saying is that these people read something and then instantaneously go on a religious crusade to force what they read on other people. You treat Christians as mindless animals who do what their told. You have no idea how much science has gone into the ID theory. As far as I can see, it is you who believes whatever your told. Im going to go out on a limb here and say you need to be a little more informed before making such claims…

Yes, I have said many mean things, and called a lot of people idiots. Im not trying to be mean, but this kind of thing just aggravates me and puts me in a bad mood. It doesnt matter how much science you put into it, your NEVER going to prove one theory over another, hence the reason Im still typing. What is the moral of this rather long explanation? Give people a chance. After all, the people who believe in ID are just as capable as you are to form a conclusion with evidence to support it…
ZaP

November 18th, 2007 | 10:46

As a great scholar once said,
“Stupid is as stupid does”.
SoniKalien

November 18th, 2007 | 10:57

I was taught we came from AMOEBIA not rocks..
OmaR

November 18th, 2007 | 11:02

the pic in the article is taken from Future Weapons..
9_P

November 18th, 2007 | 11:05

tmsgabber, you lost me after the third sentence. Save the speeches for your bathroom mirror. Who preaches on the comments section of a piracy website? How many contradictions is that? You’re lame, we think your lame, Jesus thinks your lame, accept it.
juno

November 18th, 2007 | 11:10

what i don’t understand is this site’s staffs fears about open debate, even if it gets out of hand. note the schoolmarm comment from mr x

“just keep it under control hopefully 8)”

along with grandmotherly ’smile’

and now they censor us so we don’t write ‘bad’ words. just try writing some ordinary words…

why such a timid and lame attitude towards free speech?
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 11:10

@14 Science never takes the position that there is no god, it is just a byproduct of knowing more about nature.

Fans of intelligent design on the other hand take the position that there is a god (and I bet it’s not Thor, Zeus or Baal). They twist the facts and search for “evidence” that play in the favor and fit into their belief system.

Just look at the history of so called “intelligent design”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3PnKswZtPI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=924Nz5WPxcQ

@17 Who is the designer and who designed him?
M.Vale

November 18th, 2007 | 11:21

What do you expect ? whe are talking about U.S. where lives the most stupid people ever found. Just look at the laws, at america for americans, look at bush duh…

There is no culture in U.S. and this americans whant to make history for the wrong reasons…
Scott Wolf

November 18th, 2007 | 11:37

“I find it absolutely adorable you believe whatever you hear. As far as I know, there has never been absolute proof that any religion, which btw includes evolution, is true.”

The theory of evolution is not a religion, it never has been nor was it ever meant to be a instrument of faith. It’s part of something called scientific method, a way of observing and understand the natural world that we are part of.

As for moving to China, I’ll go over there whenever you decide to move to Iran and see how life is in an oppressive theocracy that looks to control freewill and independent thought.
alteran

November 18th, 2007 | 11:46

@26 Just because Bush is stupid it doesn’t mean all Americans are stupid. Remember that in the 2000 election 52.2% of America voted for someone other than Bush.
Nillerus

November 18th, 2007 | 11:54

Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks you’re and idiot.
eyeweaver

November 18th, 2007 | 12:11

http://www.darwinistsneverrealize.com/

interesting videos:
THE COLLAPSE OF ATHEISM
http://www.harunyahya.com/m_video_detail.php?api_id=1244

THE COLLAPSE OF EVOLUTION
http://www.harunyahya.com/m_video_detail.php?api_id=1245

THE DISASTERS DARWINISM BROUGHT TO HUMANITY
http://www.harunyahya.com/m_video_detail.php?api_id=1132

more videos:
http://www.harunyahya.com/html/m_video_index.htm
JesusChristIt'sALion

November 18th, 2007 | 12:16

I lol’d at this thread.
koutomo

November 18th, 2007 | 12:26

“believe” as the word said has not much to do with reality. You believe in something, thats the point. Is there a God? Its not important, the point is that you believe that it exists.
Evolution or ID? Many scientists worked on discovering the world we live in and the conclusion of thousand’s work is the evolution theory. Its not perfect, its not complete but it works. Or you can “believe” in ID.

I think the most important is not to “believe” what somebody says but making your own research, your own “religion” = your own point of view.

Of course its always easier to get a well made religion, ready to use…with Gods and rules and few space for your own ideas…
lol

November 18th, 2007 | 12:45

If the US americans want to believe that ID is true, let them. It will give the rest of the world a scientific advantage and something to laugh about.
wah

November 18th, 2007 | 12:49

What would life be like if Christ had not come and Christianity had not spread throughout the world? It would most likely be much different, of which we all can agree. Although Greece gave western civilization much art, philosophy and literature, and Rome provided law and government, it was the Christian worldview that provided the basis for modern science, efforts to alleviate poverty, universal education, and the ideals of equality and liberty enshrined in the documents of the many governments. The God of order and beauty provided for the view that nature was predictable and orderly. The Christian belief that all humanity is a creation of God gave a foundation to the self-evident truth of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Since people are made in the image of God they are valuable apart from their station of life, amount of wealth, or utility to society. People are helped, educated, and protected simply because they are made in God’s image. Loss of these Christian ideals would undoubtedly be a tragic loss to the well-being of humanity.
blah frikin blah

November 18th, 2007 | 12:57

blah frikin blah thats all i hear..

Believe in something, thats all i ask, just believe in something… even nothing is something!… yes it is!

the next guy believes in something

couldnt tell ya what i believe, but it is something

does it matter if my something is different to your something?… nope!

but at least its something

Do ya get my point yet?

oh and my respect to your something.
Andrew

November 18th, 2007 | 12:57

I never suggested that only one version of events should be taught in schools (@19), on the contrary, I strongly believe that people should be provided with the skills/tools to think logically, understand things from a position of knowledge and therefore be able to determine what is right from wrong for themselves.

The definition of “insanity” is someone who has a deranged state of mind, a lack of understanding or can’t distinguish right from wrong.

What I’m trying to say is that you shouldn’t associate people who are Christians with those who are technically insane and standing under a Christian banner because this simply isn’t so.

Instead what I was suggesting is that someone who would call themselves a Christian and who feel that their faith in GOD is somehow threatened by the prevailing point of view in the community (scientific conclusions) and therefore feels the need to attack and undermine those conclusion with poorly conceived ideas are poor Christians at best.
Brian S

November 18th, 2007 | 13:16

General theory of evolution is not a theory – it is a fact.
Darvin theory of evolution – is different matter. He got few points wrong, but general theory is sound. Very impressive for pre-DNA era. It is not for science to prove that theory is correct but try to disprove it. So far darvin theory stands. And go ahead Christians tell us that laws of “natural” (sexual) selection is wrong. Been 16 too

If you think that world is 6000 years old when every evidence tells 600 million you need to have your head examined.

If you think that science should except creationist dogma as foundation with no facts to prove it, no bases – you are obviously have no idea what science is.

Man evolved – that is the fact.
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 13:29

It’s the year 2007 and the world is still at war over who has the most powerful invisible friend.

I don’t care about people’s beliefs until they try to force it on me or on my children, or making me or my children adjust to the ways of Bronze Age myths.

Now they are, by calling creationism science they try to get the popular vote, getting in to classrooms, building museums witch show man and dinosaurs side by side. The fossil records being described as results of the great flood.

The ridicules claim that the world is 6000 years old (why do we see stars tens of thousands light-years from here, anyone? ) is being supported by the president of the united states and 54% of the population. If you ask me, religion is causing way more harm than it is doing good and it’s time to grow up and stop having invisible friends.

I’m so glad I live in the most non-religious country in the world.
The_Doctor

November 18th, 2007 | 13:47

Come on, everyone should just give up, you can’t find or even know how we were created, if you do, well, it becomes false since the the answer is instantly changed, just because the magical man in the sky was very evil. So just give it up and figure out how to mess with it and alter the design yourself…. you are (well most of you) are intelligent….
Jixx

November 18th, 2007 | 14:06

ADULDTS shouldn’t have INVISIBLE friends.
Emm

November 18th, 2007 | 14:10

“i got pole position on this one”

Isn’t that the same thing as “I’m first”?… was kinda funny!

@jonnyBoy,

OR we can all just leave people up to their own decisions about what they want to believe

That’s what most of Christians do. In U.S. Christianity is something else… different. Andrew, pointed it well, above your comment.
Markstar

November 18th, 2007 | 14:16

LOL at the stone-woman analogy. *shakeshishead*

That is EXACTLY why science needs to step up and tell those guys how stupid they are. If a guy would do that in front of a group of scientists, he would most certainly get laughed at. But maybe a group of “normal” people would actually believe an eloquent talker (=preacher) that humans came from rocks.

Humans didn’t come from rocks, though living things may fossilize over a long period of time.

And no, even though we make scientific progress all the time, the question of whether or not Evolution is a fact is NEVER ever seriously doubted by any scientist.
Roofy

November 18th, 2007 | 14:29

just a little question for those on the evolution side of the debate.

why is water the only substance on earth that expands and becomes less dense when it freezes ( 0 – 4 degrees Celsius)?

water cannot evolve so the theory of evolution does not play any role here so think of a reason why water expands when it freezes. The reason it expands is so that it floats on top of the water because, as i said earlier, it becomes less dense. if it didn’t become less dense then any life in the water would die.

just thought i would make a points for the intelligent creator side of this debate.

BTW i am open to all sides of this dilemma and am not close minded
a3dz

November 18th, 2007 | 14:34

i am a dinosaur, which way to the ark guys?
You're an Idiot

November 18th, 2007 | 14:58

@43,
So if I freeze a fish in a block of ice or a frozen solid pond, it would live?
Your little question is lame, at best.
Elements have not evolved, life evolves. If we all came from Adam as Eve, why do pygmies look different than Eskimos. Perhaps they evolved to their respective lifestyle, climate, and surroundings.

Not everyone has evolved at the same rate. It is obvious by some of the posts here.
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 15:11

@43

You are confusing the words reason and result.

The reason is:

When liquid water is cooled, it contracts like one would expect until a temperature of approximately 4 degrees Celsius is reached. After that, it expands slightly until it reaches the freezing point, and then when it freezes it expands by approximately 9%.

This unusual behavior has its origin in the structure of the water molecule. There is a strong tendency to form a network of hydrogen bonds, where each hydrogen atom is in a line between two oxygen atoms. This hydrogen bonding tendency gets stronger as the temperature gets lower (because there is less thermal energy to shake the hydrogen bonds out of position). The ice structure is completely hydrogen bonded, and these bonds force the crystalline structure to be very “open”.

The result:

The result is that ice floats, and yes we would not see life as we know it if it didnt, if any. Whats your point?
GOD

November 18th, 2007 | 15:29

@ 34 wah

“it was the Christian worldview that provided the basis for modern science, efforts to alleviate poverty, universal education, and the ideals of equality and liberty enshrined in the documents of the many governments.”

What a fallacious statement: the take-over of Christianity given us over a thousand years of total obscurantism, where philosophers writings were forbidden/banished/censored by the pope while Galileo Galilei -heliocentrism- was an heretic for over 300 years -until the late 20° century and John-paul 2- lol!
Persecutions, forced conversions, witch-hunts, Inquisition, massacres, religious wars, crusades, obscurantism.
That were revolutions against the nobles and the clergy, partners in crime for oppressing the poor, that enshrined equality and liberty in the documents of many governments (cf. France); universal education? lol…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_persecution_by_Christians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo#Church_controversy
Believe what you want

November 18th, 2007 | 15:42

You can believe what you want. But there is only one way to salvation, through Jesus. If you wan’t more scientific information against the evolution or are just interested in the debate. Take a look at this movie…

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6814048597272982882
gonzalez

November 18th, 2007 | 15:52

@12
Thats GOD blocking your ports!
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 16:00

@48
I disagree, the pink unicorn is the only way to salvation!
Or was it the tooth fairy… hmmm
BTW, piracy (i.e. stealing) is not… so you’re going to hell to burn forever throughout eternity with indescribable pain… just total torture increasing with every second, butraped with a pitchfork with your head buried in a pile of glowing coal. Oh, But god loves you… remember that!
Who cares

November 18th, 2007 | 16:13

Rightous christian proselytizers on a piracy weblog. That’s what I call an evolutionary bloomer
Blackeyedbearhawk

November 18th, 2007 | 16:29

Kevin Padian is clearly not aware of “The Pyramid of Complexity” this theory is backed by the scientific community.It explains that the world is too complex to have evolved out of thin air, and that it needs a creator.

The theory is not some Christian hoax or whatever, it’s scientific, just like the theory of evolution.

Check out this documentary:
part1

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=6aCClfmSsw0

part2

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=CZKVtt0CQWk

part3

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=H841_rIMv7k

part4

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=B-DhTEJI7Ks

part5

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=S5T2vVTRjrI

part6

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=gNoHnbz3BGg

part7

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=3zrY_8YAwdM

That’s it enjoy!
Not Stupid

November 18th, 2007 | 16:31

I agree with #51. If you all would just READ the comments in this thread… then you all would see how incompetent children you all are.

I for one am glad that I am a thinker (open minded- but not so open minded that my brain fell out). I am glad I separated myself from closed minded religious brainwashing and I still don’t believe in no “gassy” Ggod(s).

Oh, and that goes for masonry, free or not, also. Their craft is deception and it wouldn’t surprise me none that they started this whole mess to begin with.

Let me give you a key to something. The cross that “christianity” claims it to be symbolizing their “saviour”, IS nothing but the mark of Cain. It isn’t the skin color of African people and its descendants and whatever they say now-a-days, but the cross is a sign that survived wayyyyyyy even before Babylon’s time. Just look, it’s everywhere.
atlas

November 18th, 2007 | 16:32

The sad thing here is that intelligent design actually has good philosophical basis and the concept of a “necessary being” is the theory opposite that of quantum mechanics. These idiots were too bloody stupid to read the proper metaphysical lit and have instead pulled some asinine attempt out of their asses to justify their little crusade into the science class.
YeahRight

November 18th, 2007 | 16:36

Pathetic appeals to confirmation bias do not a documentary, or trial, make. Moore should get the chair — or a Nobel, but preferably the chair — for convincing so many stupid people otherwise.

And, for God’s sake (irony intended), what is it about anti-religionists that makes them just have to be even bigger idiots than religionists? I mean, who would have even thought that possible?!? How has it escaped so many of you that you can’t be mad at (the) God(s) if you don’t believe in (the) God(s), your clear anger gives lie to you claims to lack of belief.
Blackeyedbearhawk

November 18th, 2007 | 16:46

Not Stupid it’s not a question of believing in God or being a Christian or not. It’s a fact that Atheism has no real hardcore scientific proof that God does not exist. It has a theory, the theory of evolution. Yes a theory just like the theory based around “The pyramid of complexity” which explains that there has to be a creator.

Do i believe that God is a man with a white beard sitting on a cloud? No of course not, i’m not stupid. Did Jesus exist and was he a great man with powers? Why not? What if we have been deprived of our powers by society and it’s structure? What if we once had such powers? We only use 5% of our brains anyway, so why close out any possibility?

To dismiss God or Atheism is both quite stupid, the truth is that we all create our own reality. That’s what i think free will means, you accept your own reality. Mine is with God, and yours is without. Respect that as you would respect somebody who has a different world view then your world view.

I always hear that Religion is the root of all evil? That’s stupid and naive to say. People are aggressive creatures, who join tribes and ideologies. People have been killing each other for as long as humans exist. So is religion to blame?

NO!

Culture is the root of all evil; It is what divides us even more then ideologies or religion.
Who cares

November 18th, 2007 | 16:55

Of course religion is to blame. It would have the suggestive power to summon people to do good.
However:
Does the Vatican tell the people in Africa to use condoms. Do the Mullahs of Nigeria support the vaccination of the people against Polio? Do evangelicals provide proper sex education in order to protect against STDs?
Organized religions may have a good core, but they always spiral out of control and turn into the dogmatic and gruesome cults we see everday
me

November 18th, 2007 | 17:02

@17 This is the only inteligent comment yet.

Little story: My Stepmom devout christian was having a discussion with my wife who is a microbiologist. My wife brought in a comment out of the “dead sea scrolls” stepmom said she didnt want to hear it “if its not in the bible its not true.” The very next week her pastor brought up the dead sea scrolls and said if you have not had a chance to review these to do so. Now stepmom is asking all kinds of questions about these.

That looks pretty mindless to me. Unable or unwilling to have a discussion unless its oked from the church!

Most christians don’t have a clue to their religion besides what their told from the church. E.G. The trinity, I bet most didnt know this was never thought untill 350AD when Constantine decreed it to be so, just to help save his empire from fighting.

Not saying the bible is all wrong (if you can read Aramaic and veiw the original transcripts) Throughout the years it’s been rewritten translated and modified by man to serve mans purpose.

Compare DNA to a computer program and intelligent design makes sense, just not a all omnipotent being saying poof let it be.

Be careful not to label people as christian or atheist there is also the agnostic view of there being more to the story then the human mind can comprehend (or at least not yet).
Ursus

November 18th, 2007 | 17:02

Get this, God is a human invention not the other way around.
Life is a mystery and so is the universe. Time is a rubberband
and we will never reach the end of universe and see the light.
All you ID lovers hug a C4-loaded fundamentalist and die happy.
NettiWelho

November 18th, 2007 | 17:05

@56.

“We only use 5% of our brains anyway, so why close out any possibility?”

If you used only 5% of your brains you wouldnt even be able to breath properly, you whole brain is in use whole time, tho, most of it handles your bodies motoric functions and such

and atheism is writtin in lowercase, unlike religions

“To dismiss God or Atheism is both quite stupid, the truth is that we all create our own reality. That’s what i think free will means, you accept your own reality. Mine is with God, and yours is without. Respect that as you would respect somebody who has a different world view then your world view.”

If it only was that simple, then id be ok with anyone believeing in elves/unicorns/fairies, but it isnt, atleast as long as people are blowing themselves up, torching abortion clinics, or forcing their narrow-minded view of the world on others

if anyone came up to me with real evidence of existance of the christian god, ID REALLY LIKE THAT, even if i would be proven wrong being atheist, id really like the idea of eternal life, but the thing is, there are still active religions in the world been around much longer than the abrahamic ones, in my mind, id rather rank them higher with possibility of being the *true* religion, just because theyve been around much longer

best shot is to trust science and see what comes up following decades with the advancing progress of technology
Not Stupid

November 18th, 2007 | 17:07

Culture may be the root Blackeyedbearhawk, but religion IS its associate. Religion with its many sects (yes, this includes the word “denomination”) divides the people. Different looks at the scriptures created different “groups”. Why is it that they can not be under 1 “entity” but still have their individual thoughts and opinions until they are convinced otherwise? I personally do not want a One World Order but I disagree with religion in its way of how to achieve peace the way they are going about it. They themselves were infiltrated with members of secret societies and are now leading the worlds flocks blind.

Food for thought. Your saviour whom you call “Jesus” suffered a massive character assassination. Jesus is a name meaning “Healing Zeus”. And the way they portray him as single and almost “homosexual” like, is just the opposite. You are told to search the truth out, so do it. I did and what I see is that we commoners (non-secret society) are in for the fight of our lives. Earth’s governments is truly run by demons with Lucifer on the throne.
Redem

November 18th, 2007 | 17:08

First point, the rock-woman analogy is just plain stupid.

Seriously, hang your head in shame for that one.
Lying makes baby jeebus cry ya know D=<

Have you ever really read anything about evolution that wasn’t creationist propaganda? Because from what you’ve written it seems not. Nor have you read anything on debating ethics apparantly. Strawmen are bad, not least because you look like a fool when you’re caught using them.

What you have described is NOT the theory of evolution, it just bares a passing similarity to the evolutionary story if you squint and lean your head to the side…

The science, and the scientists, are clear. We evolved. Sorry if this contradicts your cherished little mythology, but that’s life.

Someone else said they would rpefer a religious person in office to one who was non-religious. Why? You would prefer someone who ultimately held themselves accountable to a being they only believed existed, but couldn;t prove, instead of one who held themselves accountable to the electorate?
That way lies madness and decent dystopian fiction.

Then there was some crappy appeal to authorities, and quote mining. Especially the einstein crap.
Guess what, he was not a creationist. He was a scientist, and soundly rejected all of your religious ideas. Many times. Over and over and over.

Then some random insults, then some claims about science proving intelligent design… care to elaborate? This would be quite the surprise to the scientific community…

Then darwin quote mining and the good old creationist claim of a death bed retraction. Always a classic that one.

Nothing new here then, just the same tired, vitriolic rhetoric.

Simple fact is you have nothing new, nor have you have for hundreds of years.
me

November 18th, 2007 | 17:13

@60
Check facts a large majority of the brain shows no activity, shown by a cat scan on what would be refered to as super genius shows much elevated activity in otherwise unused portions of the brain. It’s in this organ may lie the answer since it’s the only area of the human body we still no nothing about.
Not Stupid

November 18th, 2007 | 17:16

As far as I am concerned this thread is over for me. I got movies and games to watch/ play/ download. I do not want to feed the incompetence here.
ENT

November 18th, 2007 | 17:23

as soon as i saw this pre the other day i knew mrx would post it
Jingle Jangle

November 18th, 2007 | 17:28

Great, so while muslim fundamentalists are trying to blow half the world up, christian fundamentalists are trying to make the other half stupid.
imran

November 18th, 2007 | 17:34

There is a lot of people out there that believe in god and believe in evolution. Frankly anyone who thinks that god created the world in 6 days and then had to rest is bonkers. If the person who created the universe is god, why would he need to rest ? An all powerful being needs to rest ? There is a lot of people who take the religious books as litteral word – which makes for some rather horrid reading. In the bible it’s said that one of Adams sons went off and married someone from another tribe – hello – how is that possible if there is only adam/eve + family ? gah .
me

November 18th, 2007 | 17:43

Nothing wrong with being with your sister as long as ya love each other right?
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 17:51

@56

Why should atheists be asked to prove that there is no god(s)? It is you who claim that there is one, the burden of proof is on your shoulders.

Everyone is born atheist, what belief you get is purely based upon where you are born, into what religious surrounding. What makes the Abraham god more probable then Thor, Baal, Zeus, Vishnu, Venus, fray etc?

If everyone is equally sure that their religion is right and you agree with that you are, say a Christian because you were born in a Christian country and not a Muslim one. Does it not become childish to still claim to the notion that you god is more probable then gods of any other religion? And why can’t the designer be Zeus?

The fact that there are and have been thousands of religions practiced through mankind’s history (witch is by all scientific ways of measuring and according all the archeology findings more than 6000 years) makes it hard to believe in any god for any sane person. (Yes people who worship invisible all powerful beings with no evidence for its existence are mentally ill in a way). In fact that is what religion is, a mental illness. If one person thinks the moon talks to him, they call it insanity, if a million thinks the same way it’s called religion.

And another thing, one cannot prove a negative.
You can’t prove that the tooth fairy does not exist, or Zeus, or that a blue naked invisible fat guy who lives under my bed does not exist.

And finally, I do not agree that ALL evil come from religion. Religion is dangerous because it is easily used as a tool to do evil, and making it seem just.

“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.”
~ Blaise Pascal, 1623-1662
Jixx

November 18th, 2007 | 17:59

i love the comments here. fundamentalism without killing each other…thanx to the internet.

BTW: those here that mention “The Pyramid of Complexity” should state where they stand! Agnostics i hope. Coz the pyramid just says it is too complex…exactly what the agnostics say.
Still you can and cannot believe in a god.

question:
Can an almighty god create a stone so heavy he/she cant carry it?
No matter what you answer: the god cannot be almighty.
Either that god is too lame to create such a heavy rock or the god is weak not to be able to carry the heaviest stone.
A paradox which in general proves the inexistence of an almighty god. Maybe some god (islam?christian?budhism?) is pretty good in what he/she/it does…but it cannot be almighty and therefor is no god.
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 18:02

@70

just a quick correction.

budhism is an athestitc religion, they dont believe in any gods.
me

November 18th, 2007 | 18:05

Living in the bible-belt we have a religion museum (christian museum) 5mi away is the Gray Fossil Museum. People from the religious museum will tell your children that the world is only 6,000 yrs old. Go to the gray site and they say the world is 4.5 billion years. This alone shows the huge divide between christianity and science.
Steve

November 18th, 2007 | 18:16

haha … My comment was editted out and all the other ones were left in. I find this quite funny. Perhaps this website is run by Muslim Extremists.
costa200

November 18th, 2007 | 18:44

” It’s a fact that Atheism has no real hardcore scientific proof that God does not exist.”

Bravooo…
That must take humpty dumpty stupidity award… Yeah and theist have no “hardcore scientific proof” (must be in a Jenna Jameson movie or something…) that Peter Pan doesn’t exist.

The nerve of asking for proof when someone believes the most incredible nonsense out of “faith” just goes to demonstrate that rationality in not a species defining trait for humans.

Tell you what, do you have the same level of demand with the people that brainwashed you into believing in “god”? If you don’t may i ask why not?
abeer

November 18th, 2007 | 19:10

I don’t live in the States and I´m atheist, so shoot me Don’ t really, I was joking, you guys don’t really well do with that turn the other cheek stuff and all, religous stuff. Interesting documentary, will show to friends.
ZombieBunny

November 18th, 2007 | 19:19

velo, actually Buddha never explicitly ruled out the existence of a God. Many branches of buddhism also have various god deities that are worshipped in various ways, there is however an universal principle in buddhism that there is no eternal creator god (like those described in Christianity, Islam and Judaism’s).
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 19:35

@76

Thanks for the info, i need to look it up now
BlakIdPea87

November 18th, 2007 | 20:00

Bananas prove the existence of God:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5118280612477465290&q=banana+proves+god&total=20&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6
SoniKalien

November 18th, 2007 | 20:04

If I was God, I would nuke the world then reformat.

But then if I was God I would have had the foresight to install a better o/s in the first place.

The thing about religion that gets me is that it’s so often hypocritical yet people don’t seem to question that. For example:

God loves me. Yet apparently he is willing to send me to live with Satan for the rest of eternity (sic) if I don’t quite live up to his standards. Oh wait, the bible says that God is going to forgive me for my sins. Or will he?

The bible also says that God is perfect and we are created in his image. If that is so, then is humanity so pharct up? And why are my teeth crooked?

My big question is: why did God even create in the first place?
Mr. X

November 18th, 2007 | 20:33

It’s nice to see discussions like this, it appears rlslog has banned most of the immature children. Nice to see some thought process put into the discussions people, thanks .
costa200

November 18th, 2007 | 21:47

@78

That banana stuff is sooo cool. The “atheists nightmare”… LOL

Guess god forgot to make the pineapple ergonomic… I can’t believe people have such limited reasoning skills… That dumb person doesn’t even know that the banana he is holding is a man made artificial selection. The wild banana resembles little to the agricultural human grown banana.
Andreas

November 18th, 2007 | 22:52

When will you jerkoffs stop naming programs HDTV when they’re even not close to being HDTV? 624×352 resolution isn’t even SDTV, which is 720×576 for PAL and 704×480 for NTSC. For God’s sake stop naming your low resolution crap HDTV!
Darth Arcon

November 18th, 2007 | 22:54

@27
Heheh, you made me laugh. It is, again, adorable you believe whatever your told. You are told evolution is correct and you believe it. Sure you may have some evidence to back it, but do you not realize that Christians have scientific evidence to prove that they are right, too? No, you were never told that…As for your attempt to separate evolution from religion: I know what the dictionary says about religion, but as far as Im concerned, a religion is a specific belief system. Evolution falls into that. Believe it or not, but evolution take just as much, if not more, faith than believing in ID does. I see these pictures of a fish slowly growing legs and lungs in these biology books, and I cant help but to wonder where that came from. Thats not science, that is speculation. Why would you put speculation into a school text book side-by-side with scientific fact? Because that is the only way to justify your belief system…

@36
Well, if you want to ask me not to mix insane people with Christians (which honestly isnt what I got out of your comment), maybe you shouldnt generalize Christians as being zealous, mindless pawns to some higher world order…You call these people “poor Christians” because they have the nerve to stand against an overall intelligence lacking society? That doesnt make sense to me at all. By my logic, you just called yourself an idiot since you yourself are trying to get me to acknowledge that you are right…So I guess that makes you a “poor atheist”…As for your first comment, it doesnt matter what your intention was, you made it very clear that you wanted one thing taught in schools, which, again by my logic, would generally create a bias in students alone…a bias toward your belief…

@37
Wow…another one of those “wow” comments…It is people like you that lead me to believe insanity exists. As before, Im going rephrase what you just said so that us dummies are capable of contemplating your words: “Evolution is pure fact, anybody that doesnt believe that is stupid. After all, we have so much evidence…those other people who believe in other things are dumb and do not want to accept science!” By my logic, you just called millions of people idiots because the only reason they dont believe you is because they are unwilling to accept your “mind-blowing” amount of evidence. You, sir, are a fool and an idiot. You have no idea how much science has gone into proving ID to be true, and how much evidence they have to back it.

@38
Ya know what, pal? It is your kind of narrow minded idiocy that got us into this mess in the first place. Sure, there are religious zealots that do nothing but shove their belief down your throat. However, your kind of generalization is very foolish. Dont forget, there are zealots on both sides of this debate. Do I generalize all evolutionists as people like #37? No, I dont. I have a brain. You, however, do not…

@53
You are open minded…that statement has just as much common sense as saying pigs fly…Ya, you separated from the evil religion, but who did you side with alternatively? Evolution has got to be the most closed minded belief I have ever known. You stubbornly refuse to entertain the possibility of a greater being simply because it doesnt fit into your belief system. Sounds pretty closed minded to me…

@57
So by your logic, it is left up to religion to protect people from idiocy? I try my best, but the idiots keep coming! Is religion to blame because people screw their own lives up? Are you kidding me?! Dont blame creationists because STD’s exist, or because people in Africa dont use condoms…You can try as hard as you want to try and prove your logic. Whether people believe you or not is still up to the people.

@58
You are but one of millions of people that seem to generalize all creationists with religious zealots whose primary goal in life is to convert you. Please dont do that, it is a common mistake that is easily remedied…

@60
Funny, since ID’s have been trying to get you to acknowledge the evidence they have found for years. Pretty solid evidence to me. No, Im not going to list it all. Honestly, Im really not so concerned with trying to convert you to ID. My goal is to make you acknowledge that your evolutionist theory is not as all powerful as you make it out to be.

@69
I agree, you are absoultely right. There is no possible way to prove something doesnt exist. Then again, that isnt what they are asking you to do. They arnt trying to get you to prove there is no God. What they are trying to do is make you prove that the evidence they have collected backing ID is false. At the end of the day, that is what we are all here to do. Because of mixed up logical thinking, we have come to see many different beliefs, all looking at the same evidence in a different way. No, dont try proving God doesnt exist, that is too easy for you. Simply saying He doesnt exist is proof enough for you, right? Obviously, since that is what you have done. Grow a brain and stop twisting peoples words…

@70
What your saying is proof of only one thing, your incompetence. What you are asking is whether a being with absolutely no limitations can create a limitation on itself, right? Thats like saying, the wind doesnt exist because it cant make a wall to block itself, thereby, giving limitation to an otherwise limitless power…pretty dumb sounding to me…

There are many other points I would love to address, but honestly I dont feel like typing for the next 3 hours…believe me when I say I can probably refute anything you can come up with…Ill be back later to see if I can…
lee welton

November 18th, 2007 | 23:00

If humans evolved from apes, why do we still have apes?
tmsgabber

November 18th, 2007 | 23:05

I believe in God, and I also believe in a fundamental evolution, not the evolution “theory”. Talk about ramming religion down everyone’s throat, why is it that “theory”, not the fact of evolution, but the “theory” of evolution is the only thing being “rammed” down our childrens throats in schools. Factual evolution is taking, say myself, out of America and moving myself and my wife to the North Pole. After centuries, my ancestors would have thicker hair, skin would be lighter, blood might be a bit thicker, which only means that my and my wife’s ancestral DNA slowly adapted to compensate for the extreme conditions that changed. Adaptation is true, factual evolution. The “theory” of evolution, on the other hand came from Charles Darwin, yes, but from a Charles Darwin that had a childish “I’m mad, so I’ll just show you” idea. He was an Orthodox Christian into his twenty’s. After his exploits, and scientific findings, mixed with his extreme emotional distaste for the “preselection and preordination” that Orthodox christians believed at the time, stupid idea I might add that God preordained me to write this instead of because I have some intelligence and a open-minded brain, that explosive mixture bred the evolution “theory”. Actually, his findings don’t prove anything decisively, thus the “theory” stamp. Some of his findings, however, prove two possibilities. When he made his first stop ashore at St Jago, part of the Galopagos Islands, Darwin found that a white band high in the volcanic rock cliffs consisted of baked coral fragments and shells. He believed that this matched Charles Lyell’s concept of land slowly rising or falling, giving Darwin a new insight into the geological history of the island which inspired him to think of writing a book on geology. This could be 1)from earthquakes causing the land mass to rise, OR 2)proof that an historical account in the Torah as well as the Old Testament, the Great Flood and Noah’s family, is fact. These are 2 different possibilities. It comes down to belief and what you want to believe this proves. There is scientific proof that there was a Great Flood sometime in History, thousands of years ago. And since the Torah is a history book of sorts, just as our learning material in school teaches us the history of our country, this would prove that historical account to be accurate. But some of you hate “organized religion” so much, that I will be called stupid and blah, blah, blah just to say that you “believe” number 1), not 2). I do think organized religion has caused alot of pain in the name of God, but only because MEN have said so. How many men lie to get what they want? If a man, or woman, can speak, it is so!!! God doesn’t ever ask any of His believers to kill in his name, or hurt anyone. This is man’s doing. Some people have psychotic or sociopathic predisposition to brutality, and when you mix that with a belief in God, and scriptures taken out of context, we get what so many people have pointed out in the crusades, or Vlad Tepes’s campaigns against Islamic extremists (a bad thing?), etc. People back then with an extreme drive for power, the only place to be able to excercise that power in the shortest amount of time was the Church. Mix that with these predispositions, and we have the dark ages. Its cause and effect. One man will get out his need by bombing an abortion clinic to fulfill his need to kill and need a reason, “God”, to help him fulfill his cause, and another, like Richard Ramirez killed to fulfill his need and used the “Devil” to ease his mind about it. Don’t lay at God’s feet what psychotic or sociopathic people do of their own accord. Hitler didn’t use God as the crutch that helped him walk him through the Third Reich and his “Final Solution”. The list is long of evil dictators who killed, in total,hundreds of millions of people not in “God’s” name, but because of a LIBERAL ideology and if you didn’t think and speak in favor of the current Political Incumbent, and didn’t speak in this “Politically Correct” fashion, you would be killed:
Stalin, Lenin, Mao Zedong, Ivan the Terrible, Ayatollah Kohmeni, Kim Jong Il, Idi Amin Dada, Sultan mehmed II, Napoleon(who did come to a personal revelation and belief in Jesus Christ AFTER he was in exile on St Helena Island), as well as Nero, Caligula and most of the nutjob Caesars that served Rome. They spewed their hate and death because of the same liberal ideas and beliefs that some of you reading hold. Yes Christians who have a personal relationship with God can also believe in a factual, scientific evolution, but are some of you that small and closed minded enough to only believe in a “theory” of evolution, and not the POSSIBILITY of the existence of our “theory” of a Divine Creator? Shall we dance?
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 23:11

@84

Whoever said we come from modern day apes?
All the great aped (that’s including humans) share a common ancestor. That’s quite different.

To say humans came from chimpanzees is like saying chimpanzees come from humans.

Read a book on evolution before you comment something you truly don’t have any knowledge of.
lee welton

November 18th, 2007 | 23:28

@ #86 velo

You fool…watch the beginning of 2001: A Space Odyssey, and you’ll see.
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 23:33

@83

For your reply @69

So far all evidence supporting ID (creationism) has been ripped to shreds by real science and the theory of evolution is still the best explanation for how life evolved.

For what reason would one believe in a god with no evidence for it existents? A God among hundreds of Gods.
A religion among hundreds of religions.

What makes your god true? You don’t really need proof do you, simply saying he exist is proof enough for you, right?
And don’t question your faith, that will get you a ticket to hell.

All I want, all it takes, is PROOF. I’m waiting…
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 23:38

@87

I hope your kidding ;P

Actors in monkey suites jumping around a big black cube-thing with sticks proves what now?
wah

November 18th, 2007 | 23:40

@47 God
Oh my bad. I forget to mention the ‘darkside’ of the whole situation. it seems my comment was only emphasizing the positive effects. People always throw up the Catholic card on this one because we all know Roman Catholicism, among others, abused Christianity once it arrived in Europe to control people’s ideology in order to gain power. But the fact doesn’t negate my point whatsoever. Yes, Christianity left a trail of devastation behind it, but only when you consider the above to be true and the fact that Jesus said He came to bring division and peace to the world. Contradictory only if you’re not reading his words in context. Jesus is speaking about the divisions that will come, even among family members, over their belief or lack of belief about Him. And what usually happens when religious conflicts arise? People start escalating it to a physical and emotional level, defying logic and reason to their violent acts. Of course, the Bible teaches that Christians are to be peaceful, loving, and forgiving. But it also teaches that we are not required to sit idly by when persecuted unrighteously. Will there are always be the “extremist fundamentalists” of any religion, group or creed? You betcha. And the effects of that will leave a trail of death. But you can’t deny that the Christian religion has had a more positive lasting effect on the modern world than if it were to be Islam or Buddhism.

@53 Not Stupid

“The cross that “christianity” claims it to be symbolizing their “saviour”, IS nothing but the mark of Cain. It isn’t the skin color of African people and its descendants and whatever they say now-a-days, but the cross is a sign that survived wayyyyyyy even before Babylon’s time. Just look, it’s everywhere.”

ah. the Christian/Pagan myth card. For hundreds of years, the Romans crucified criminals on a ‘wooden cross’ made by two perpendicular sticks. Maybe the Romans got their idea from an ancient pagan religious symbol for novelty purposes or maybe it was the ideal method to quicken an effective punishment. Either way, that’s what the Christian cross symbol is based on; if jesus was crucified on an x-shaped sticks then that would have been the Christian symbol. The fact that a ‘cross’ symbol have existed years before jessus’ death doesn’t mean they are related. it would only mean that a common universal symbol is given new meaning by an event. That is on the order of, “Many people believed things fell from the sky in ancient times, so Newton must have gotten his laws of motion from them.”
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 23:48

@90

I just have to say that a tool of torture is quite fitting the Christian faith. You would agree of course but in a whole different way.

But I agree though, the cross has been used before as religious or symbolic signs, they don’t however have anything to do with the Christian cross. Although one could argue, if the cross was a common symbol used, that it was easily picked up and spread by the people of that time, helping to spread the religion. But that’s just me brainstorming
wah

November 18th, 2007 | 23:49

@60, @69

You should read, “God? A debate between a christian and an atheist” (William Lane Craig and Walter Sinnott-Armstrong). While it isn’t about ID, it is highly recommended. Not biased at all. The debate has very good points on both sides. I would say they are both tied. [URL="http://www.amazon.com/God-between-Christian-Atheist-Counterpoint/dp/0195166000/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195426039&sr=1-2"]here.[/URL]
velo

November 18th, 2007 | 23:51

@92

will check it out
wah

November 19th, 2007 | 00:03

@90

I understand your point. If you check out any Christian non-denomination, perhaps even denominations, you’ll find that the “artwork” is simple, perhaps, too plain, compared to the extravagant, beautiful architecture of the Catholic churches. Most non-denominations generally don’t do the whole “nativity/three wise-men scence/virgin mary/or even the jesus figure on the cross (must a plain cross)”. Why? because it’s mostly the Roman Catholics who borrowed pagan ideas and symbols and “placed” it into CHristianity. That’s where you get people fooled into thinking that all that is a Christian idea but it was simply a cultural assimilation between the underground persecuted CHristians hiding under Europe and the Roman pagan culture during ancient times. Most of have a ritual we practice at home where we eat with our family at 6pm. Well, people of all different races and religion have been doing that for thousands of years, in addition to many other different ‘common home rituals’? Does that mean most of us are practicing pagan activities? The fact that a religions picks up or copies certain ideas and elements of symoblism to represent its religion doesn’t negate the doctrinal truth behind it, even if all religions have the same symbol and practicing rituals doesn’t mean each of them hold the same theological system.
wah

November 19th, 2007 | 00:09

@93

Thanks for the kind response, even if it would’ve been no thanks. I offered the same suggestion to another person online and they blew up at me. Jessh take chill pill.
wah

November 19th, 2007 | 00:12

post 94 was directed to 91-velo
me

November 19th, 2007 | 00:54

Man I’m suprised no one brought this up and I cant even find all 3 in torrents but it’s Southpark S11E10-12. 3 part series moot point is “So what if Jesus wasnt the person the bible makes him to be he’s done more to make the world a better place than any of us. And he’ll be around long after we’re gone.” Slight bit off topic but leaning this way anyway.
costa200

November 19th, 2007 | 01:21

@83

I for one actually have a degree in Biology and it is clear you don’t squat about what you’re saying. “christians have evidence too”??? Where is it? 99% of Biology professionals support evolution, 0,5% believe we came from outer space and the other 0,5% are too damn religious to know what they are doing. Personally i’d rather go with the outer space crazy people than with “creationism”. And you have a lot of nerve talking about believing what you were told to believe… Ever seen someone be a christian without having another christian around to brainwash him?

About proving ID false in a scietific way, have you seen this documentary? Your ID heroes got completely owned in court and out of it. Every single stupid argument was destroyed and Behe even said Astrology was a science. That’s right, the main ID heroe thinks Astrology is a science! How ridiculous can you get?

And about your atitude towards poster number 70, i think you should take some lessons in logic. An Omnipotent being IS a logical impossibility by the reasons he pointed out. It is not his fault that you fail to grasp the scope of what he was saying. A being that has, by definition, no limitations cannot create/cause something that limits it and so, if your logical abilities can follow, is not unlimited. Its a logical blunder. Now, in your world of magical thinking (you should have gonne through this phase before 10 years old) this may not seem a problem, but in the real world this actually means that your omnipotent god cannot exist. If there is such a thing, it is not omnipotent.

@85

“There is scientific proof that there was a Great Flood sometime in History, thousands of years ago.”

There is no such thing and i personally challenge anyone to point this “scientific proof” out to me using the adequate geological data.

And for the love of your god, don’t use magical data from creationist websites. Use a proper scientific reference, an article that has gone through some sort of peer review and not something one of my highschool student could tear down without braking a sweat.
Andrew

November 19th, 2007 | 01:37

While many here may not adhere to a belief in GOD or to the theory of “intelligent design” I’m sure that few here would have a problem with the core values of the New Testament: The world isn’t what you wish or want it to be but rather what you make of it and the best world to live in is one of peace, love and understanding.

It’s unfortunate that there are people in this world (past and present) who have endeavoured to create a world of violence, hate and ignorance while maliciously using the Christian faith as a justification for their actions.

For the record Darth @83 I’m Anglican (Protestant) and I’m not saying that I’m right and you are wrong I was only suggesting that you consider looking critically at the debate from a different perspective.

Would teaching ID theory in the classroom result in peace, love and understanding or violence, hate and ignorance? I believe the latter and therefore suggest that those who espouse the ID theory are poor Christians at best and insane at worst.
costa200

November 19th, 2007 | 01:41

@99

You’re Anglican (=not a raving fanatic zealot) so you probably gonna get “you’re not a real christian…” and stuff!

And about me, i don’t mind most of the New Testament core calues (quite nice most of them, in fact). But as soon has you start talking about miracles left and right you gonna lose me